To pray to Jesus or not to pray to Jesus?

Fred

Well-known member
Of course they do.

Of course they don't.

To you it is,
To the Bible it is. God alone fully knows the hearts of all, so God alone is the proper recipient of prayer (1 Kings 8:38-39).

just as to me you praying to Jesus is improper prayer.

Since the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all (Acts 1:24), then He is the proper recipient of prayer (Acts 1:24-25).

Acts 1:24-25
(24) And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
(25) to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

When the appellation "Lord" appears without reading "Lord Jesus" in Acts 1:24 it is important to keep in mind that whenever the following key words from this prayer are found elsewhere in Scripture in association with the "Lord" then the Lord always refers to the Lord Jesus.
The passages in boldface are from the same author (Luke).
1. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "show" (anadeiknymi) in Acts 1:24 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Luke 10:1).
2. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "chosen" (eklegomai) in Acts 1:24 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:2; cf. v. 6; Luke 6:13; cf. vv. 5, 46; John 6:70; cf. v. 68 and John 13:18; cf. vv. 13-14).
3. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "ministry" (diakonia) in Acts 1:25 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:17; cf. v. 21; 20:24; 1 Corinthians 12:5; Ephesians 4:12; cf. Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 4:17; 1 Timothy 1:12).
4. The "Lord" occurs along the same Greek word for "apostleship" (apostolē) in Acts 1:25 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:5; cf. Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 9:2).

No just factual.

Which proves you are even more confused.
 
Last edited:

Newbirth

Well-known member
Of course they don't.
just like you, they say they do...
To the Bible it is.
only to you.
God alone fully knows the hearts of all, so God alone is the proper recipient of prayer (1 Kings 8:38-39).
Therefore God alone is God..
Since the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all (Acts 1:24), then He is the proper recipient of prayer (Acts 1:24-25).
Acts 1;24 does not say, Jesus.
Acts 1:24-25
(24) And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
(25) to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
Where does it say Jesus?
When the appellation "Lord" appears without reading "Lord Jesus" in Acts 1:24 it is important to keep in mind that whenever the following key words from this prayer are found elsewhere in Scripture in association with the "Lord" then the Lord always refers to the Lord Jesus.
Who will give Jesus the throne of David in the passage?
Luke 1:
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
The passages in boldface are from the same author (Luke).
1. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "show" (anadeiknymi) in Acts 1:24 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Luke 10:1).
2. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "chosen" (eklegomai) in Acts 1:24 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:2; cf. v. 6; Luke 6:13; cf. vv. 5, 46; John 6:70; cf. v. 68 and John 13:18; cf. vv. 13-14).
3. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "ministry" (diakonia) in Acts 1:25 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:17; cf. v. 21; 20:24; 1 Corinthians 12:5; Ephesians 4:12; cf. Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 4:17; 1 Timothy 1:12).
4. The "Lord" occurs along the same Greek word for "apostleship" (apostolē) in Acts 1:25 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:5; cf. Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 9:2).
The Lord God will give Jesus the throne of David. We only need one instance where Jesus has a Lord.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Which proves you are even more confused.
How so? Is the scripture calling Jesus' father Lord?
Jesus was made Lord by his father...
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Read John 1:1-14 again carefully. I will quote verses 1 an 14 here,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
John 1:1, 14

What does it mean "the Word was God?"
is "God" used of the Word in the noun sense, or in the title sense, in Jn 1:1c? If in the noun sense, why do you insist on applying it to Jesus the man in the titular sense?

What is used in heaven only in a noun sense wouldn't necessarily apply to a man of the flesh. Why do you suppose it would?

What does it mean "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us?"
It infers a transposition of a very significant kind as between heaven and earth. The transposition entailed a change in external form (Phil 2:6,7).

Q: If pagan gods could flit between earth and heaven at will, how is your religion any more profound than paganism if your theology adopts the same approach? Why do believe that proposing two Gods, one in earth and another in heaven is honoring to God? Let me ask you: are you advocating polytheism? If not you are a votary of Sabellius.
 

cjab

Well-known member
BTW, the recipient of a prayer is not necessarily the same as the addressee of a prayer.

For example, up until November 5, 1924, a prayer to a Chinese Emperor might be handled by one of his eunuchs. But a prayer to a eunuch would likely not be successful, as the eunuch has no authority of himself to hear prayers that are not mindful of the authority of the emperor. Such could be deemed treasonous if intentionally subversive of the emperor's authority. Here it will all depend on the state of knowledge, motive and intention of the prayer.

The idea that Christ will answer the prayer of one who neither owns nor recognizes the authority or separate existence of the Father is misconceived, given that Christ said: John 4:23 "But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him." If you despise the Father, then the Father will despise you.
 

Neo

Member
is "God" used of the Word in the noun sense, or in the title sense, in Jn 1:1c? If in the noun sense, why do you insist on applying it to Jesus the man in the titular sense?

What is used in heaven only in a noun sense wouldn't necessarily apply to a man of the flesh. Why do you suppose it would?


It infers a transposition of a very significant kind as between heaven and earth. The transposition entailed a change in external form (Phil 2:6,7).

Q: If pagan gods could flit between earth and heaven at will, how is your religion any more profound than paganism if your theology adopts the same approach? Why do believe that proposing two Gods, one in earth and another in heaven is honoring to God? Let me ask you: are you advocating polytheism? If not you are a votary of Sabellius.

Bible > John > Chapter 1 > Verse 1
John 1:1
Strong's Lexicon
In
Ἐν (En)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1722: In, on, among. A primary preposition denoting position, and instrumentality, i.e. A relation of rest; 'in, ' at, on, by, etc.

[the] beginning
ἀρχῇ (archē)
Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 746: From archomai; a commencement, or chief.

was
ἦν (ēn)
Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

the
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

Word,
Λόγος (Logos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3056: From lego; something said; by implication, a topic, also reasoning or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, the Divine Expression.

and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 2532: And, even, also, namely.

the
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

Word
Λόγος (Logos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3056: From lego; something said; by implication, a topic, also reasoning or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, the Divine Expression.

was
ἦν (ēn)
Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

with
πρὸς (pros)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 4314: To, towards, with. A strengthened form of pro; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. Toward.

God,
Θεόν (Theon)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 2532: And, even, also, namely.

the
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

Word
Λόγος (Logos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3056: From lego; something said; by implication, a topic, also reasoning or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, the Divine Expression.

was
ἦν (ēn)
Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

God.
Θεὸς (Theos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

Oh, a good understanding of who God is may help you better understand this.

Does a person that has emotions, thoughts, and a will make three different people, or one person with three different attributes?

Obviously it is one person that has three different attributes (emotions, thoughts, and a will) in one body.

Likewise a human body has many parts, but is still one body. There are hands, fingers, eyes, ears, etc. These are not many bodies, but one body with many attributes.

The same goes for God. God is The Father. God is the Son. God is the Holy Spirit. All three are different attributes, but make up one God.

Do you understand that multiple attributes can make up one entity?
 

cjab

Well-known member
The same goes for God. God is The Father. God is the Son. God is the Holy Spirit. All three are different attributes, but make up one God.
The Father is not an "attribute" of God in the bible, even if the Word and the Holy Spirit could be construed in that sense.

Do you understand that multiple attributes can make up one entity?
You're into philosophy now. If I lose my arms and legs, does that make me any less of a human being. If I lose my son (supposing I had a son), am I less of a human being. If my spirit is dead because of sin, am I less of a human being?

I suggest that your "noun" definition of "God" owes more to philosophy than to the bible. Of course the Holy Spirit and the Word are the Father's agents, and carry the authority of God, but the title of God is reserved to the Father alone.

And your second problem is that it was the words that Jesus spoke that conveyed God's authority, which words came from God, but he himself was given no authority to be God, although he had authority to act as God's son (i.e. to assume God's authority in certain respects), because that is what he was. So why do you insist on calling the Son of God, "God"? What point do you hope to establish? If all the apostles deferred to Jesus as the Son of God, why are YOU calling him "God"?

It was the unbelieving Jews who demanded that their messiah be "God" himself.
 
Last edited:

Fred

Well-known member
You ignored all the evidence I gave that shows it could also refer to the father.
You showed nothing within the prayer where a word was used in association with the Lord that is used elsewhere in reference to the Father.
I gave 4 very clear examples that show they are in reference to Jesus elsewhere.

100% to 0%

I'll stick with the 100% and you can have nothing.
 
Last edited:

Newbirth

Well-known member
You showed nothing within the prayer where a word was used in association with the Lord that is used elsewhere in reference to the Father.
It is right there in red
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
I gave 4 very clear examples that show they are in reference to Jesus elsewhere.
To which I say God made Jesus Lord...
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Whatever Jesus is My God made him that. Jesus even prays to my God.

100% to 0%

I'll stick with the 100% and you can have nothing.
I have a God who your God prays to. You have a God who submits to my God. My God is the head of your God...
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
 

Fred

Well-known member
It is right there in red
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


People can be referred to as "kyrios," so your point is invalid. (Acts 16:30)

Post 231
You're still at 0%.
None of my 4 points were refuted.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
People can be referred to as "kyrios," so your point is invalid. (Acts 16:30)
You are not making any sense...I presented a passage where Jesus calls God his father "Lord"...Are you saying that Jesus is referring to God the Lord of heaven and earth as a human person?
Post 231
You're still at 0%.
None of my 4 points were refuted.
This one passage refutes your 4 points...Jesus calls his Father Lord of heaven and earth...So back to my point. Is my God the head of Jesus Christ your God? Yes or no?
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
But not in relation to any of the words used within the prayer in Acts 1:24-25.
Nothing in Acts 1: 24-26 says lode is referring to Jesus... but even if it is you still have to consider that God made Jesus Lord. Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
So for all intent and purposes, Jesus answers to God.
Pathetic.
A you say so affirmation doesn't cut it. You have to do much better than that.


You're still at 0%.
Your denial is proof of nothing...When are you going to deal with this...?
Jesus calls his Father Lord of heaven and earth...So back to my point. Is my God the head of Jesus Christ your God? Yes or no?
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
I agree.
It's not "lode," but Lord.
thanks
The proofs I have supplied have still not been refuted.
Oh yes, they are when you answer the questions... Is my God the head of Jesus Christ your God? Yes or no?
And you are still at 0%.
only because you are afraid to answer the questions... Is my God the head of Jesus Christ your God? Yes or no?
Keep up the awful work.
and you keep on dodging the questions... Is my God the head of Jesus Christ your God? Yes or no?
 
Top