Today's Gospel: John 6: 24-35

[LifeIn]

At mass today, Catholics hear John 6:24-35, which is a continuation of the bread of life discourse that started last week, where Jesus feeds the 5000 from the five loaves and two fish. That was food for earthly life. But Jesus now begins talking about food for eternal life. When those where feed by the five loaves come looking for Jesus across the sea, Jesus says: "Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled." In other words, they just wanted another free meal. But Jesus tells them "Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you."

They still don't get it, and ask him "What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do?" which is really uncalled for. They had seen his healing power. They had heard his preaching. There had been signs aplenty. And still they asked for more signs. But Jesus does not condemn them. He continues to explain to them "Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." When Jesus says "life to the world", he is referring to eternal life, whereas the mana in the desert was only for that day and only for earthly life.

When the people say "Sir, give us this bread always" they probably still don't understand the significance of what Jesus just said, and are still thinking about the loaves and fishes they had the day before. So Jesus tries once more to explain to them by saying "I am the bread of life." This is more than "I am the provider of the bread of life." Jesus says he IS the bread of life. What is equivalence entails is what we will get to in next Sunday's readings.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Here's the thesis for your passage, come and believe on Jesus Christ.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 

[pilgrim]

Here's the thesis for your passage, come and believe on Jesus Christ.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

... and believe that His flesh is true food and His blood is true drink.

 

[mica]

PeanutGallery said:
Here's the thesis for your passage, come and believe on Jesus Christ.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

... and believe that His flesh is true food and His blood is true drink.

spiritual food and drink, not physical.

catholics don't feed on Him and His word, but on the RCC and its false words.

 

[PeanutGallery]

... and believe that His flesh is true food and His blood is true drink.

.. as surely as I believe Jesus is the living bread, the light, the door, good shepherd, the resurrection, the way, the truth, the life, and the true vine; all are spirit.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[1Thess521]

When the people say "Sir, give us this bread always" they probably still don't understand the significance of what Jesus just said, and are still thinking about the loaves and fishes they had the day before. So Jesus tries once more to explain to them by saying "I am the bread of life." This is more than "I am the provider of the bread of life." Jesus says he IS the bread of life. What is equivalence entails is what we will get to in next Sunday's readings.

John 4:15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water.”
Is Jesus water?

 

[pilgrim]

John 4:15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water.”
Is Jesus water?

Living water refers to the Holy Spirit.

John 7:37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, “If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. 38 He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

 

[1Thess521]

Living water refers to the Holy Spirit.

John 7:37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, “If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. 38 He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

are you saying John has Jesus using food metaphors for to represent other things?
Isn't eating the flesh a metaphor for believing?

John 6:
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life and I will raise them up at the last day.”

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[mica]

Living water refers to the Holy Spirit.

John 7:37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, “If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. 38 He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

yes, when one is born again that living water will flow in their heart.

who receives that living water? those who have heart belief in Him or those who eat a wafer (which isn't mentioned in those verses)?

 

[pilgrim]

are you saying John has Jesus using food metaphors for to represent other things?

Jesus used many metaphors. The key is to understand when they were and were not used. A good clue in John 6 is the reaction of those who heard Jesus' words. Did they take them literally? Yes. Why? Because that is how Jesus spoke to them. Did Jesus (who could read their thoughts) clarify His words, as a good teacher ought to do? No. There was no need to clarify. They understood Him correctly.

Now for all the endless metaphors that Jesus could have used, why did He purposely choose the one metaphor that offended His disciples? Isn't His mission to save souls? Then why drive them away needlessly?

 

[1Thess521]

Jesus used many metaphors. The key is to understand when they were and were not used. A good clue in John 6 is the reaction of those who heard Jesus' words. Did they take them literally? Yes. Why? Because that is how Jesus spoke to them. Did Jesus (who could read their thoughts) clarify His words, as a good teacher ought to do? No. There was no need to clarify. They understood Him correctly.

Now for all the endless metaphors that Jesus could have used, why did He purposely choose the one metaphor that offended His disciples? Isn't His mission to save souls? Then why drive them away needlessly?

1) He drove away Unbelievers (who had the same understanding as Catholics)
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”

2) What literally gives Eternal life? What figurately gives Eternal life?

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life and I will raise them up at the last day.” ​

or​

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.​

​

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life

3) v.63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing

 

[balshan]

At mass today, Catholics hear John 6:24-35, which is a continuation of the bread of life discourse that started last week, where Jesus feeds the 5000 from the five loaves and two fish. That was food for earthly life. But Jesus now begins talking about food for eternal life. When those where feed by the five loaves come looking for Jesus across the sea, Jesus says: "Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled." In other words, they just wanted another free meal. But Jesus tells them "Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you."

They still don't get it, and ask him "What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do?" which is really uncalled for. They had seen his healing power. They had heard his preaching. There had been signs aplenty. And still they asked for more signs. But Jesus does not condemn them. He continues to explain to them "Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." When Jesus says "life to the world", he is referring to eternal life, whereas the mana in the desert was only for that day and only for earthly life.

When the people say "Sir, give us this bread always" they probably still don't understand the significance of what Jesus just said, and are still thinking about the loaves and fishes they had the day before. So Jesus tries once more to explain to them by saying "I am the bread of life." This is more than "I am the provider of the bread of life." Jesus says he IS the bread of life. What is equivalence entails is what we will get to in next Sunday's readings.

I see you are still focused on this theme. It will never make your host the real body and blood of Jesus.

Jesus is the focus of true believers lives. He is the one who changes us. He is found in scripture and one should read it daily.

 

[balshan]

Jesus used many metaphors. The key is to understand when they were and were not used. A good clue in John 6 is the reaction of those who heard Jesus' words. Did they take them literally? Yes. Why? Because that is how Jesus spoke to them. Did Jesus (who could read their thoughts) clarify His words, as a good teacher ought to do? No. There was no need to clarify. They understood Him correctly.

Now for all the endless metaphors that Jesus could have used, why did He purposely choose the one metaphor that offended His disciples? Isn't His mission to save souls? Then why drive them away needlessly?

Yep this has been spoken about ad nauseam.

 

[mica]

Jesus used many metaphors. The key is to understand when they were and were not used. A good clue in John 6 is the reaction of those who heard Jesus' words. Did they take them literally? Yes. Why? Because that is how Jesus spoke to them. Did Jesus (who could read their thoughts) clarify His words, as a good teacher ought to do? No. There was no need to clarify. They understood Him correctly.

no, they didn't understand Him.

Now for all the endless metaphors that Jesus could have used, why did He purposely choose the one metaphor that offended His disciples? Isn't His mission to save souls? Then why drive them away needlessly?

He didn't drive them away. He knew that the Father had not called them to Him,

just as He knew in Matt 16 that it was the Father Who revealed to Peter that He (Jesus) was the promised Messiah.

 

[LifeIn]

no, they didn't understand Him.

The bible does not say anything about their not understanding him. The bible says they thought the words of Jesus were just too hard for them to accept. This whole "not understanding him" business in this instance is just an invention of your church. Like the disciples that stayed with Jesus, we have decided to follow God's word and believe in what Jesus said.

He didn't drive them away. He knew that the Father had not called them to Him,

So he did drive them away by confusing speech and failing to correct their "misunderstanding" because the Father had not called them? It seems like Jesus is going out of his way to remove any possibility of anyone's free will affecting their behavior. Do you really not believe people have any free will? Can I freely choose to have Pepsi or Coke? Can I freely choose to punch someone in the face or say kind word to them? Can I freely choose to curse God or to pray to God? Or am I forced like a puppet in every decision? If one is forced to sin, it hardly seems fair to punish that person with the fires of hell, does it?

 

[mica]

The bible does not say anything about their not understanding him. The bible says they thought the words of Jesus were just too hard for them to accept. This whole "not understanding him" business in this instance is just an invention of your church. Like the disciples that stayed with Jesus, we have decided to follow God's word and believe in what Jesus said.

So he did drive them away by confusing speech and failing to correct their "misunderstanding" because the Father had not called them? It seems like Jesus is going out of his way to remove any possibility of anyone's free will affecting their behavior. Do you really not believe people have any free will? Can I freely choose to have Pepsi or Coke? Can I freely choose to punch someone in the face or say kind word to them? Can I freely choose to curse God or to pray to God? Or am I forced like a puppet in every decision? If one is forced to sin, it hardly seems fair to punish that person with the fires of hell, does it?

It seems like Jesus is going out of his way to remove any possibility of anyone's free will affecting their behavior.

What does Jesus say about it?

"The clearest verse on God’s drawing to salvation is John 6:44 where Jesus declares that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part." from Got Questions where you can read more regarding this.

John 6.44 - 45 -
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[LifeIn]

What does Jesus say about it?

"The clearest verse on God’s drawing to salvation is John 6:44 where Jesus declares that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part." from Got Questions where you can read more regarding this.

Another example of your church twisting the meaning of Scripture to suit their doctrine of no free will. That interpretation is inconsistent with the notion of punishment. You don't punish a child for doing wrong if that that was being forced to do wrong by forces outside of his control. And God does not punish people for doing things outside of their control either. Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden because they freely chose to listen to the serpent and disobey God. The coming of Christ into the world did not put an end to free will.

John 6.44 - 45 -
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This gives a necessary condition for salvation, but not a sufficient condition. The Father guides (not hog-ties and drags) people to Jesus, but people still have to freely choose Jesus. Belief in Jesus is not forced upon anyone.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

This is an invitation.

 

[mica]

Another example of your church twisting the meaning of Scripture to suit their doctrine of no free will. That interpretation is inconsistent with the notion of punishment. You don't punish a child for doing wrong if that that was being forced to do wrong by forces outside of his control. And God does not punish people for doing things outside of their control either. Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden because they freely chose to listen to the serpent and disobey God. The coming of Christ into the world did not put an end to free will.

no, it is the clear words of scripture, words that don't agree with what the RCC teaches. That is what upsets catholics. Thru out His ministry Jesus clearly teaches 'believe in and follow Me'. do you have a verse where He tells people to 'believe in and follow man' ? Peter? specifically the RCC?

scripture clearly tells us that God specifically called Paul to take His word to the Gentiles. He doesn't say that about Peter.

This gives a necessary condition for salvation, but not a sufficient condition. The Father guides (not hog-ties and drags) people to Jesus, but people still have to freely choose Jesus. Belief in Jesus is not forced upon anyone.

scripture clearly teaches what is necessary for salvation. do you have any verses that give conditions that are merely 'sufficient' for salvation?

This is an invitation.

doesn't sound like an invitation. the words are past tense. done. clearly you haven't experienced it (yet). those whose hearts have been changed by God do choose Christ over man, because that becomes the desire of their hearts - as given to them by God.

Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus. God said that Saul/Paul was His chosen vessel.
He didn't need to hogtie Saul, after his experience with Christ he willingly followed the directions he was given.

otoh, people are often hogtied by their sin, the miseries and tragedies of their lives in this world and welcome being set free in Him.

 

[LifeIn]

Thru out His ministry Jesus clearly teaches 'believe in and follow Me'.

This too is an invitation to exercise free will and believe in and follow Jesus.

scripture clearly tells us that God specifically called Paul to take His word to the Gentiles. He doesn't say that about Peter.

Yet that is what Peter did by his conversion of the Gentile, Cornelius. All the apostles were charged with preaching the good news to all the nations.

doesn't sound like an invitation. the words are past tense. done.

Here are the words of John 6:45 in clearer language:

It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.

The invitation is to let yourself be taught by God so that you can believe in Jesus and come to him. It does not deny free will.

Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus. God said that Saul/Paul was His chosen vessel.
He didn't need to hogtie Saul, after his experience with Christ he willingly followed the directions he was given.

Exactly! Saul chose to follow Christ. That's free will.

otoh, people are often hogtied by their sin,

Only if they chose to commit sin. Again it is free will. No one is forced to sin against their will, otherwise punishment for sin would not make any sense.

 

[mica]

This too is an invitation to exercise free will and believe in and follow Jesus.

then why don't catholics use their free will and choose to believe in and follow Jesus instead of the RCC men?

Yet that is what Peter did by his conversion of the Gentile, Cornelius. All the apostles were charged with preaching the good news to all the nations.

the 12 were sent out to the Jews. Paul was specifically called to the Gentiles.

Who does Peter teach to and write to in Acts and his epistles? Jews.

yes, Peter needed to learn that was God's plan to be. Why did Peter leave his Gentile friends when his Jewish friends came around? He had to get over the legalism of Judaism that he held to.

plus the 12 and Judaizers needed to stop telling people that Paul's teaching was wrong.

Here are the words of John 6:45 in clearer language:

It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.

The invitation is to let yourself be taught by God so that you can believe in Jesus and come to him. It does not deny free will.


Exactly! Saul chose to follow Christ. That's free will.

just out of the blue and goodness of his 'Saul' heart? did you miss the story of the road to Damascus?

Only if they chose to commit sin. Again it is free will. No one is forced to sin against their will, otherwise punishment for sin would not make any sense.

do you know a lot of people who don't sin? anyone?

we did have a catholic on the old forum who claim he didn't sin...