Richard7
Well-known member
Great, thx you so much, he will be a real benefit to me.... wish I could do the same, but you got Vogel, chuckle.
Translation of the BoM, and money digging
- Thread starter Markk
- Start date
Ralf these are the types of remarks that really show how ignorant you are in regard to your posts, and by default mind set. I don’t agree with Vogel on all his conclusions. Just as I don’t with all historians and certainly apologists. But very few people on the planet know as much about the life of Joseph Smith as Dan. Go to the FAIR home search engine and see how many times they quote his 5 vol set…and I guarantee you they all use his set for research...even if they disagree with his conclusions for the most part. While you are at it, search Rod’s name there, Fair and Rod have a long relationship. But again, if you actually read what you paste, you would know you have.
Richard7
Well-known member
I have seen Vogel on Mormon Stories, a favorite of John Dehlin... no thanks, but again you never stated once you did not agree with him on all things, how was I to know that... you just throw out a name and tell me to read it as if this guys has all the answers then you don't agree with him completely, do you know how ignorant that sounds and unintelligent... LOL
I know how unintelligent your post is here. Do you agree with everything Hanna says? You already said you disagreed with Nelson. Do you disagree with everything David Whitmer wrote?
Ralf, I told you once you are not emotionally ready for this, you can't even state what you position is...prove me wrong!
What is your belief on how the BoM was translated, ig regard to mechanics...remember you told me you have no issues with the "hat."
A. a single seer stone in a hat
B. spectacles (interpreters) in a hat
C. Both A & B interchangeably
D. Other...if other please explain.
Richard7
Well-known member
Always the same, deflection by trying to make this about me.... embarrassing Markk that you can't address the topic without marginalizing me first. Reminder Markk: "Translation of the BoM, and money digging"
How can I know since JS stated that the means of translating were:
“I would inform you that I translated [the book], by the gift and power of God.” When pressed for specifics about the process of translation, Joseph repeated on several occasions that it had been done “by the gift and power of God”24 and once added, “It was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon.”
Others from a direct quote for JS.... “I would inform you that I translated [the book], by the gift and power of God.” When pressed for specifics about the process of translation, Joseph repeated on several occasions that it had been done “by the gift and power of God”24 and once added, “It was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon.”
I asked the above, you answered:
Which is ducking the question, I asked in regard to mechanics? No one is arguing the church teaches it is "gift and power of God."
What is ironic, you pasted the above from this official church teaching...
Book of Mormon Translation
By the gift and power of God, Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from an ancient record inscribed on gold plates.
www.churchofjesuschrist.org
Yet you stopped short in pasting what the very same article teaches about the mechanics...which is:
The Mechanics of Translation
In the preface to the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith wrote: “I would inform you that I translated [the book], by the gift and power of God.” When pressed for specifics about the process of translation, Joseph repeated on several occasions that it had been done “by the gift and power of God”24 and once added, “It was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon.”25Nevertheless, the scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process. Some accounts indicate that Joseph studied the characters on the plates. Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone), and many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.26 The process as described brings to mind a passage from the Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.”27
The scribes who assisted with the translation unquestionably believed that Joseph translated by divine power. Joseph’s wife Emma explained that she “frequently wrote day after day” at a small table in their house in Harmony, Pennsylvania. She described Joseph “sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.”28 According to Emma, the plates “often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen tablecloth.” When asked if Joseph had dictated from the Bible or from a manuscript he had prepared earlier, Emma flatly denied those possibilities: “He had neither manuscript nor book to read from.” Emma told her son Joseph Smith III, “The Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity—I have not the slightest doubt of it. I am satisfied that no man could have dictated the writing of the manuscripts unless he was inspired; for, when acting as his scribe, your father would dictate to me for hour after hour; and when returning after meals, or after interruptions, he would at once begin where he had left off, without either seeing the manuscript or having any portion of it read to him.”29
Another scribe, Martin Harris sat across the table from Joseph Smith and wrote down the words Joseph dictated. Harris later related that as Joseph used the seer stone to translate, sentences appeared. Joseph read those sentences aloud, and after penning the words, Harris would say, “Written.” An associate who interviewed Harris recorded him saying that Joseph “possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone.”30 ...
Once again you are on the wrong side of what the church teaches.
Richard7
Well-known member
Hardly Markk, what we do know is that JS never gave any details, the very person who knew more about the how, what and why then anyone else.
Richard7
Well-known member
Richard7
Well-known member
Well you could be right, nothing is really set in cement. But I have a habit of using common sense in reasoning, why would since the time of the writing of the BoM would God prepare and instrument for interpreting the scriptures beginning with Lehi and all the way to Moroni and have them keep all the important things God gave them to help translate and promote the BOM.... such as the plates themselves, the Interpreters, the Sword of Laban and the compass they used in the wilderness? Also to be sure they were carried with them from generation to generation and then deposited with the plates in a cement box for the day they would be shown and given permission to translate the plates... but instead a seer stone which was never dedicated or consecrated by the Lord to be used as a instrument or means of translation. God did at one time touch the stones for the Brother of Jared for the use of light and yet the Lord never was in contact with the seer stone or its consecration for use as a interpreter.... nice try, but this just shows the elite, professors of history, progressives and revisionist and you are not really that intelligent..
We know a lot. And we especially know what the church teaches, and that they teach the Book of Mormon was translated, even if only for th most part, with a Seer Stone in a hat, with his face buried in it.
Did you know if you went to the Church Museum....you would see an exhibit of the seer stone?
“Joseph Smith had to learn how to use physical instruments to translate. As a young man, he used a seer stone to find lost objects. but as he grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that could use the seer stone, in addition to the spectacles for the higher purpose of translating scripture.”
And
The church teaches that the Book of Mormon was translated with a Seer Stone, and in his hat.
Well Ralf. this has almost gone full circle, and you are imploding. You are saying I am not intelligent, because I paste 100% positive proof, th ethe church, its prophet, its website, its museum, it's teaching manuals...all teach Joseph Smith used a seer stone, in his hat, with his face pressed into the hat, to help translate the Book of Mormon.
Common sense tells us, if it quacks like a duck...!
You certainly don't have to believe it, but to deny the church teaches it is just denial. Especially when you pasted the link from the church that reads as such.
Richard7
Well-known member
We know a lot. And we especially know what the church teaches, and that they teach the Book of Mormon was translated, even if only for th most part, with a Seer Stone in a hat, with his face buried in it.
Did you know if you went to the Church Museum....you would see an exhibit of the seer stone?
“Joseph Smith had to learn how to use physical instruments to translate. As a young man, he used a seer stone to find lost objects. but as he grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that could use the seer stone, in addition to the spectacles for the higher purpose of translating scripture.”
And
The church teaches that the Book of Mormon was translated with a Seer Stone, and in his hat.
Really?
Joseph Smith likely used his brown seer stone while translating the Book of Mormon. His wife, Emma Smith, is believed to have made the leather pouch for the stone’s safekeeping.
There it is again Markk, the hated word LIKLEY,
Church Museum of History and Art
Richard7
Well-known member
Read and grieve good buddy. This also condemns David Whitmere as being wrong when he stated JS never got the Urim and Thummim back.
Joseph Smith.
On the 22d of September, I had the joy and satisfaction of again receiving the Urim and Thummim; and have commenced translating again, and Emma writes for me; but the angel said that the Lord would send me a scribe, and <I> trust his promise will be verified. The angel He also seemed pleased with me, when he gave me back the Urim and Thummim; and he told me that the Lord loved me, for my faithfulness and humility.
“Soon after I received them I inquired of the Lord, and obtained the following revelation”: “Now, behold I say unto you, that, because <you> delivered up those writings, which you had power given you to translate, by the means of the Urim and Thummim into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them; and you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened; nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again, therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun:
Notice, as soon as he receives the Urim and Thummim, he states Emma writes for me, nothing about a seer stone is mentioned, just the return of the UT....
He had at least three seer stones that I am aware of, and most accounts say he used his brown one. They have this stone, and they teach he used a stone to translate the plates.Really?
Joseph Smith likely used his brown seer stone while translating the Book of Mormon. His wife, Emma Smith, is believed to have made the leather pouch for the stone’s safekeeping.
There it is again Markk, the hated word LIKLEY,
Church Museum of History and Art
Joseph Smith did not write that, why are you saying he did? He was dead when this was written in 1845. Remember that the church teaches that the U&T is either the spectacles or the seer stone.
WE already established in here interview with her son she testified.
‘In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us… .'”
Richard7
Well-known member
Its from the JS Papers, why argue with me about who wrote it.... Lucy Mack Smith diary writing about what JS said to her.
This rationale also explains why he and Oliver wrote the eight essays on Church history (published as Letters I - VIII in the 1834-5 Messenger and Advocate). In Letter I, published in October 1834, Oliver declared "Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, “Interpreters,” the history, or record, called “The book of Mormon.” (Messenger and Advocate I.1:14 ¶4)
D&C 10: 1-3
1 Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.
2 And you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened.
3 Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again;
The earliest extant account of the Urim and Thummim is an 1832 interview in the Boston Investigator (shown below).
Later, in January 1833, W.W. Phelps explained the term to his readers:
The book of Mormon, as a revelation from God, possesses some advantage over the old scripture: it has not been tinctured by the wisdom of man, with here and there an Italic word to supply deficiencies.—It was translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles—(known, perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim) and while it unfolds the history of the first inhabitants that settled this continent, it, at the same time, brings a oneness to scripture,
(Evening and Morning Star I.8:58 ¶6)
Richard7
Well-known member
True, but she never again witnessed the translation after the first 116 pages. Jospeh Smith was at that time using the UT and nothing is stated about a seer stone until much later, so Emma of course is repeating what she heard from others, such a David Whitmere and others who were passing on misinformation.
Published in October 1834, Oliver declared "Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, “Interpreters,” the history, or record, called “The book of Mormon.” (Messenger and Advocate I.1:14 ¶4)
Richard7
Well-known member
Hmm, silence.
Magdalena
Well-known member
Why are you arguing with your own church about that? Even they’re admitting he used the seer stone.