Treatise from Issues, Etc. about how Paul writes about "faith alone"....

Bonnie

Super Member
without even mentioning those words together or using "alone." I have maintained that IF we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, what is there left to be saved by? Neither works of the Law or works done in righteousness (Titus 3) will justify us and there are no other categories for good works in the Christian faith.


There are some advertisements in a few places in this article, but just keep scrolling down; you will see the rest of the article. It does a good job of explaining that Paul taught salvation by faith alone without even using those two words.

Christians believe a lot of concepts found in the Bible, that are not labeled, such as the Triune Godhead/Trinity; Virgin Birth; Hypostatic Union....so this "faith alone" is also one of these. Of course, those that claim we believe a dead faith saves us is ignorant, for we know a true and living faith always results in good works, which vindicate us before man, since man cannot see into our hearts and souls as God can. But the works themselves do not save us; grace through faith DOES. Good works are the fruit of a true and living faith. Also, it isn't "faith vs. works" but a living faith vs. a dead faith. The article has this in it:

And while Paul excludes works of the law entirely from our justification before God, he properly includes works in the life that results from justification through faith alone. The statement (attributed to Martin Luther or John Calvin, depending on whom you ask), “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone” is true. Works have their place following justification. Paul concludes in verse 10: “For we are His workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

Anyway, I just wanted to post this on here. Enjoy. :) And God bless those who read it.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
There is also another interesting article after this one, in the "Wittenberg Trail" series, about a man coming out of Roman Catholicism into our church. It too is interesting. Just an FYI.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
without even mentioning those words together or using "alone." I have maintained that IF we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, what is there left to be saved by? Neither works of the Law or works done in righteousness (Titus 3) will justify us and there are no other categories for good works in the Christian faith.

I believe you might first and foremost--show where anyone has claimed one is saved by works? That's just the claim which arises whenever one posts scriptures connecting God's grace with one's obedience, IE--

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The scriptures testify one is saved by God's grace. The elephant left sitting in the room, is--who does God extend that grace to?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So--let's examine some legitimate questions:

Is God extending His grace to them which walk in His light--the same as being saved by works? If not--then how do Lutherans compare their theology of "faith alone"--with the theology of 1John1:7--where His grace is extended to them which walk in His light, as the Lutherans claim one is saved unto eternal life, independent of any works of acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

There are some advertisements in a few places in this article, but just keep scrolling down; you will see the rest of the article. It does a good job of explaining that Paul taught salvation by faith alone without even using those two words.

To be sure--those two words are absent in most all translations--except here:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Christians believe a lot of concepts found in the Bible, that are not labeled, such as the Triune Godhead/Trinity; Virgin Birth; Hypostatic Union....so this "faith alone" is also one of these.

I don't believe the term "faith alone" is objectable in some senses--just not faith alone theology. I'm faith alone--when it comes to the difference between faith in Christ and the Mosaic Law--I will choose faith alone, but not faith alone theology. There is a difference.

Of course, those that claim we believe a dead faith saves us is ignorant,

I don't believe faith saves us, in and by itself. God's grace does. James stated faith without works is dead. What works do you, as a Lutheran--add to faith in obtaining eternal life?

I have asked that on a number of occasions, and no one has given a single work, as to their faith alone theology.

I will:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Lutherans?

for we know a true and living faith always results in faith,

And there is the catch--"result". IOW--what Bonnie is saying--all works are added AFTER eternal life has occurred in the individual. There are no works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ) which are added in obtaining eternal life, in faith alone theology. It's a faith without works in obtaining eternal life--something James labels as dead faith.

which vindicate us before man, since man cannot see into our hearts and souls as God can. But the works themselves do not save us; grace through faith DOES.

No one has claimed works saves--that is just something the faith alone adherents add whenever scriptures are posted which defy faith alone theology. Please give a cite otherwise.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Good works are the fruit of a true and living faith.

IOW--it's a "true and living faith" to begin with--and then the fruits are added.

That just adds up to saying it's "true and living faith"-- as a faith without fruits, or works. Something James calls dead faith--then becomes ""true and living faith".

Matthew 7:19---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

If eternal life occurs before the fruits occur(faith alone theology)--then why are all those who are without the fruits--"cast into the fire"?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
If eternal life occurs before the fruits occur(faith alone theology)--then why are all those who are without the fruits--"cast into the fire"?
That is the law.

The difference is the true Jesus fulfilled the law and we died and were united with Him, the true Jesus, in our baptism, the true baptism. See Romans six. Therefore, our sins are forgiven and we have eternal life through faith alone and will not come into condemnation.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
That is the law.

The difference is the true Jesus fulfilled the law and we died and were united with Him, the true Jesus, in our baptism, the true baptism. See Romans six. Therefore, our sins are forgiven and we have eternal life through faith alone and will not come into condemnation.
And that new life in Christ enables us to do works of love, out of love for Him and what He did for us on the cross. But we do them IN salvation, not for salvation. We do them BECAUSE we are saved, not to get saved. Works righteous groups just do NOT get it. Nor can they, without the indwelling HS.
 

LifeIn

Well-known member
And that new life in Christ enables us to do works of love, out of love for Him and what He did for us on the cross. But we do them IN salvation, not for salvation. We do them BECAUSE we are saved, not to get saved. Works righteous groups just do NOT get it. Nor can they, without the indwelling HS.
Perhaps people that are referred to here as "works righteous groups" are not actually saying that good works are the cause of salvation. I mean, I'm sure somebody has made that claim, but it cannot be a very popular belief. Perhaps the real dispute is over whether someone who is not saved can do good works, or whether someone who is saved can fail to do good works. These questions can be considered independently of the question of the "cause of salvation". So just because someone thinks an unsaved person can do good works, that does not mean those good works can bring about salvation. But even that question hinges on who is saved and who is not, and when they become saved. The point in one's life at which one finds out for sure if they are saved is after death. Before that, one can hope they are saved, or think they are saved, but how would they know for sure? God knows for sure. That much is certain. But what living human can be sure of something that only God knows? By raising these questions I am not staking out a position on the main question of the roll of works - only pointing out the philosophical difficulties in even discussing them.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Perhaps people that are referred to here as "works righteous groups" are not actually saying that good works are the cause of salvation. I mean, I'm sure somebody has made that claim, but it cannot be a very popular belief. Perhaps the real dispute is over whether someone who is not saved can do good works, or whether someone who is saved can fail to do good works. These questions can be considered independently of the question of the "cause of salvation". So just because someone thinks an unsaved person can do good works, that does not mean those good works can bring about salvation. But even that question hinges on who is saved and who is not, and when they become saved. The point in one's life at which one finds out for sure if they are saved is after death. Before that, one can hope they are saved, or think they are saved, but how would they know for sure? God knows for sure. That much is certain. But what living human can be sure of something that only God knows? By raising these questions I am not staking out a position on the main question of the roll of works - only pointing out the philosophical difficulties in even discussing them.
Monster of uncertainty alert🙂
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
That is the law.

Jesus taught gospel truths in the book of Matthew--that is why the first four books in the Biblical NT are referred to as the "gospels". One might make the point it was during the time of the Mosaic Law, but not that it was exclusive to it.

That it does not align with the Lutheran theology does not mean the "gospels" aren't gospel.

Matthew 7:19---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Again--how does that blend with Lutheran theology--which teaches one only can bring forth fruits AFTER they achieve salvation?

The difference is the true Jesus fulfilled the law and we died and were united with Him, the true Jesus, in our baptism, the true baptism.

But the record concerning water baptism joins one's fruits--- with God's grace:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

See Romans six. Therefore, our sins are forgiven and we have eternal life through faith alone and will not come into condemnation.

If one obtains the forgiveness of sins(God's grace) through repentance and water baptism--then it isn't faith alone.

In fact--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the entire Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
And that new life in Christ enables us to do works of love, out of love for Him and what He did for us on the cross. But we do them IN salvation, not for salvation. We do them BECAUSE we are saved, not to get saved. Works righteous groups just do NOT get it. Nor can they, without the indwelling HS.

There is something about that claim which deserves consideration:

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

If that's true--then you claim above is rendered false.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Perhaps people that are referred to here as "works righteous groups" are not actually saying that good works are the cause of salvation.

I believe your post should be read and carefully considered.

The above statement is true--as nobody has claimed anyone is saved by works. That is just a knee-jerk reaction which occurs by the Lutherans, and faith alone adherents--whenever scriptures are posted which connects God's grace with one's obedience.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I mean, I'm sure somebody has made that claim, but it cannot be a very popular belief.

No one has made that claim.

Perhaps the real dispute is over whether someone who is not saved can do good works,

Bingo!!! Or--that God extends His grace to them which obey Him:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

or whether someone who is saved can fail to do good works.

Right on, again.

These questions can be considered independently of the question of the "cause of salvation".

Exactly--but not in Lutheran theology. In faith alone theology--that presents a problem which is a bridge too far.

Any scripture which connects God's grace with our obedience--is anathema to faith alone theology, and must be labeled--"works righteous salvation".

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So just because someone thinks an unsaved person can do good works, that does not mean those good works can bring about salvation.

That is true, as it's God's grace which brings eternal life.

Again--the elephant left sitting in the room--who does God extend His grace unto life?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

But even that question hinges on who is saved and who is not, and when they become saved.

Excellent!

I appreciate someone bringing this up--because it's a point overlooked, and carefully concealed.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Bonnie has said "And that new life in Christ enables us to do works of love, out of love for Him and what He did for us on the cross. But we do them IN salvation, not for salvation. We do them BECAUSE we are saved, not to get saved. Works righteous groups just do NOT get it. Nor can they, without the indwelling HS."

Which is a point the mormons for some reason can't grasp. Perhaps it's because they lack the Holy Spirit opening them up to this great truth.
dberrie2020 quoted this part of scripture from Acts 5......and never did explain or present commentary.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

So, dberrie2020...what does obey him mean?

Does it mean following the commandments of God and when you have followed or performed enough of the commandments of God you receive the Holy Spirit?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
In this verse dberie2020 is delibertly being deceitful and I do mean deliberately...
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
dberrie2020 to his shame has been told on numerous occasions that he hasn't presented the whole scripture. dberrie2020 has only presented the portion that supports his false theology.

Here's the rest of the biblical thought that dberrie2020 has left out...

The verse goes on to say
20“All these I have kept,” said the young man. “What do I still lack?

The mormon will say to God, I kept the commandments....What do I still lack?

The verse continues with......
21Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”

Do the mormons sell all of their possessions and give to the poor? For dberrie2020 that answer is NO.

22When the young man heard this, he went away in sorrow, because he had great wealth.

When the mormon heard this dberrie2020 went away...not in sorrow...clinging to his false mormon works saves you belief.....disregarding the part where Jesus said "Then come, follow Me".

It is true what Bonnie has said "And that new life in Christ enables us to do works of love, out of love for Him and what He did for us on the cross. But we do them IN salvation, not for salvation. We do them BECAUSE we are saved, not to get saved. Works righteous groups just do NOT get it. Nor can they, without the indwelling HS."

Mormons such as dberrie2020 follow works to obtain salvation...they don't really follow Christ Jesus.
Mormons such as dberrie2020 don't present the entire account from the bible but stop short. Then try to pass this deceitful tactic off as truth.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Bonnie has said "And that new life in Christ enables us to do works of love, out of love for Him and what He did for us on the cross. But we do them IN salvation, not for salvation. We do them BECAUSE we are saved, not to get saved. Works righteous groups just do NOT get it. Nor can they, without the indwelling HS."

Which is a point the mormons for some reason can't grasp. Perhaps it's because they lack the Holy Spirit opening them up to this great truth.
dberrie2020 quoted this part of scripture from Acts 5......and never did explain or present commentary.
https://forums.carm.org/goto/post?id=1004407
dberrie2020 said:
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

What's there to explain? It means exactly what it testifies to--even if it does violate faith alone theology--and Bonnie's claim. The faith alone adherents just don't get it.

So, dberrie2020...what does obey him mean?

That question could only be asked by one of faith alone theology--as they believe it could mean anything but an act of obedience.--as it applies in Acts 5.

Acts 10:35---King James Version
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Does it mean following the commandments of God

Of course it does:

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

and when you have followed or performed enough of the commandments of God you receive the Holy Spirit?

The scriptures connect obedience to Christ with receiving the Holy Ghost. The claim of Bonnie that only those who receive the Holy Ghost can obey Him isn't Biblical, and is the cry of faith alone adherents.

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
In this verse dberie2020 is delibertly being deceitful and I do mean deliberately...

dberrie2020 to his shame has been told on numerous occasions that he hasn't presented the whole scripture. dberrie2020 has only presented the portion that supports his false theology.

Here's the rest of the biblical thought that dberrie2020 has left out...

The verse goes on to say
20“All these I have kept,” said the young man. “What do I still lack?

The mormon will say to God, I kept the commandments....What do I still lack?

The verse continues with......
21Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”

Do the mormons sell all of their possessions and give to the poor? For dberrie2020 that answer is NO.

I'm not sure how you are relating what the LDS do--or don't do--with the testimony of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That violates Lutheran theology--period. One can blame God or the LDS--but it's still what is testified to.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
What's there to explain? It means exactly what it testifies to--even if it does violate faith alone theology--and Bonnie's claim. The faith alone adherents just don't get it.
Eph 2:8-9 KJV
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Bonnie doesn't violate scripture. Your deceitful presentation of scripture does.

What part of "not by works" don't you get?


That question could only be asked by one of faith alone theology--as they believe it could mean anything but an act of obedience.--as it applies in Acts 5.

Acts 10:35---King James Version
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Can one obtain righteousness who doesn't receive remission of sins by believing in Christ Jesus'name?

Romans 10 tells us....
“There is no one righteous" Do you honestly think you can work your way into righteousness?

Should the bible say “There is no one righteous except mormons"?

A person becomes righteous when their sins are imputed to Christ Jesus and then Christ Jesus' righteous is imputed to them.

Only a true believer feareth him, and worketh righteousness...a non believer can't feareth him, and worketh righteousness.


Of course it does:

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Do you keep the commandments? I say no. This would mean according to your interpretation you don't love Christ Jesus.

Or are you so pius to believe you keep all of the commandments?
The scriptures connect obedience to Christ with receiving the Holy Ghost. The claim of Bonnie that only those who receive the Holy Ghost can obey Him isn't Biblical, and is the cry of faith alone adherents.
Then tell us my mormon friend...how much "obedience" is required to receive the Holy Spirit?
Hebrews 10:36---King James Version
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
What is the promise? What is the reward the preceeding verse mentions?

1 Cor 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
I'm not sure how you are relating what the LDS do--or don't do--with the testimony of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That violates Lutheran theology--period. One can blame God or the LDS--but it's still what is testified to.
FINISH THE VERSE...STOP DECEIVING.
 

Nic

Well-known member
The opposite is to be irrationally certain about everything. It seems that the three hardest words to say are "I don't know."
To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ.
Is this more irrational certainty?
If so, then faith itself is irrational certainty, to which I would agree. Nothing about faith passes the rational test or we would all unbelieve and become atheist or agnostic. Miracles, life after death, etc. affront reasonableness apart from the irrational certainty of faith. But these things do not advocate that we abandon faith for reasoned or rational certainty. What of Abraham and Isaac and the sacrifice God would provide? Yet this is yet another example of irrational certainty epitomizing the possession of the freely given gift of faith.

Peace 🙂
 
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