Triduum - Thursday evening through Easter morning

LifeIn

Well-known member
Today marks the beginning of the holiest three days in the liturgical calendar - Holy Thursday evening leading to Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter Sunday. It is called the Triduum, and the services held on these days are considered to be all one service. Thursday evening always features a reading of the Gospel story of Jesus washing the feet of his disciples. This is repeated symbolically by the priest washing the feet of a number of people. The Thursday mass ends with a veneration of the sacrament Jesus instituted that night, the eucharist. Sometimes it is followed by a period of silent adoration of Jesus present in the sacrament.

On Good Friday there is a mass with a communion service, but unlike every other mass of the year, there is no consecration of the hosts, out of respect for the remembrance of Jesus dying on the cross that day. Instead hosts consecrated the previous day are distributed in communion. Good Friday usually has a veneration of the cross in which the people approach a cross and express their veneration by genuflecting, bowing, kneeling, touching the cross, or even kissing the cross. (That is not happening this year because of the pandemic.)

Holy Saturday in certain ethnic traditions is a time to bring baskets of Easter food to be blessed. It is a simple ceremony, not a mass.

The first mass for Easter is the Easter vigil held late Saturday night. It is a traditional time to welcome those being baptized or confirmed into the Church. The "midnight mass" can be up to three hours long, but often is more like a regular mass. It is the high point of the entire liturgical calendar.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
Today marks the beginning of the holiest three days in the liturgical calendar - Holy Thursday evening leading to Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter Sunday. It is called the Triduum, and the services held on these days are considered to be all one service. Thursday evening always features a reading of the Gospel story of Jesus washing the feet of his disciples. This is repeated symbolically by the priest washing the feet of a number of people. The Thursday mass ends with a veneration of the sacrament Jesus instituted that night, the eucharist. Sometimes it is followed by a period of silent adoration of Jesus present in the sacrament.

On Good Friday there is a mass with a communion service, but unlike every other mass of the year, there is no consecration of the hosts, out of respect for the remembrance of Jesus dying on the cross that day. Instead hosts consecrated the previous day are distributed in communion. Good Friday usually has a veneration of the cross in which the people approach a cross and express their veneration by genuflecting, bowing, kneeling, touching the cross, or even kissing the cross. (That is not happening this year because of the pandemic.)

Holy Saturday in certain ethnic traditions is a time to bring baskets of Easter food to be blessed. It is a simple ceremony, not a mass.

The first mass for Easter is the Easter vigil held late Saturday night. It is a traditional time to welcome those being baptized or confirmed into the Church. The "midnight mass" can be up to three hours long, but often is more like a regular mass. It is the high point of the entire liturgical calendar.
In all of this monotonous blather about what the Roman Catholic Church is going to do for Thursday, Friday and Saturday, you've posted all about what is being marked on the Roman Catholic Church liturgical calendar - what it's called and the services being held, but the Roman Catholic Church is so busy with all their self-ingratiating falderal that in everything you posted about what the Roman Catholic Church is 'doing', Jesus was only mentioned 3 times. It's all about the Roman Catholic Church and what it plans to do to make itself 'look' holy. In all of the hoopla that Roman Catholics get caught up in, the Roman Catholic Church completely forgot to mention that it was on this day that Judas Iscariot was also ingratiating himself by being in a dastardly bargaining session between himself and the chief priests, by planning a "surprise party" for Jesus and his disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane this night. Actually, the Roman Catholic Church is so involved in itself and how they will be reading a gospel story of the washing of feet, and how the Roman Catholic priest will pretend that he is humble by washing the feet of people, so the actions leading to the betrayal of Jesus Christ probably just wasn't important enough to include or feature in their pre-planned Roman Catholic service. The Roman Catholic Church is unparalleled with it comes to putting on "shows" - this is no different.
 

mica

Well-known member
In all of this monotonous blather about what the Roman Catholic Church is going to do for Thursday, Friday and Saturday, you've posted all about what is being marked on the Roman Catholic Church liturgical calendar - what it's called and the services being held, but the Roman Catholic Church is so busy with all their self-ingratiating falderal that in everything you posted about what the Roman Catholic Church is 'doing', Jesus was only mentioned 3 times. It's all about the Roman Catholic Church and what it plans to do to make itself 'look' holy. In all of the hoopla that Roman Catholics get caught up in, the Roman Catholic Church completely forgot to mention that it was on this day that Judas Iscariot was also ingratiating himself by being in a dastardly bargaining session between himself and the chief priests, by planning a "surprise party" for Jesus and his disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane this night. Actually, the Roman Catholic Church is so involved in itself and how they will be reading a gospel story of the washing of feet, and how the Roman Catholic priest will pretend that he is humble by washing the feet of people, so the actions leading to the betrayal of Jesus Christ probably just wasn't important enough to include or feature in their pre-planned Roman Catholic service. The Roman Catholic Church is unparalleled with it comes to putting on "shows" - this is no different.
yes it is (as usual) all about the RCC and what it does.

I had to go back and count and yep, 3 mentions of Jesus.

when I 1st read it my thought was - well, once a year catholics put some focus on the cross, and that'll be it until next year.
 

LifeIn

Well-known member
the Roman Catholic Church completely forgot to mention that it was on this day that Judas Iscariot was also ingratiating himself by being in a dastardly bargaining session between himself and the chief priests,
No, the oversight was mine. I didn't mention all the scripture readings from Thursday's mass. The Church does indeed recall in the readings at mass how Judas betrayed Jesus. It happens just before the washing of the disciple's feet. Judas is mentioned in even greater detail on Palm Sunday (6 days ago now.)
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Today marks the beginning of the holiest three days in the liturgical calendar - Holy Thursday evening leading to Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter Sunday. It is called the Triduum, and the services held on these days are considered to be all one service. Thursday evening always features a reading of the Gospel story of Jesus washing the feet of his disciples. This is repeated symbolically by the priest washing the feet of a number of people. The Thursday mass ends with a veneration of the sacrament Jesus instituted that night, the eucharist. Sometimes it is followed by a period of silent adoration of Jesus present in the sacrament.

On Good Friday there is a mass with a communion service, but unlike every other mass of the year, there is no consecration of the hosts, out of respect for the remembrance of Jesus dying on the cross that day. Instead hosts consecrated the previous day are distributed in communion. Good Friday usually has a veneration of the cross in which the people approach a cross and express their veneration by genuflecting, bowing, kneeling, touching the cross, or even kissing the cross. (That is not happening this year because of the pandemic.)

Holy Saturday in certain ethnic traditions is a time to bring baskets of Easter food to be blessed. It is a simple ceremony, not a mass.

The first mass for Easter is the Easter vigil held late Saturday night. It is a traditional time to welcome those being baptized or confirmed into the Church. The "midnight mass" can be up to three hours long, but often is more like a regular mass. It is the high point of the entire liturgical calendar.
Our church has Maunday Thursday and Good Friday services, and sometimes, Holy Saturday services. This year, our Pastor will hold a zoom Holy Saturday service at noon. And of course, we have a joyous Easter service with Communion, celebrating Jesus' glorious resurrection.. We have Communionon on Maunday Thursday and Easter, but not the other 2 days. But all these services are focused on Jesus Christ.

But in no way, shape, or form do we EVER venerate the inanimate torture device of the cross! We do not genuflect to or bow to pieces of wood or metal. That smacks of idolatry.
 

LifeIn

Well-known member
Our church has Maunday Thursday and Good Friday services, and sometimes, Holy Saturday services. This year, our Pastor will hold a zoom Holy Saturday service at noon. And of course, we have a joyous Easter service with Communion, celebrating Jesus' glorious resurrection.. We have Communionon on Maunday Thursday and Easter, but not the other 2 days. But all these services are focused on Jesus Christ.

But in no way, shape, or form do we EVER venerate the inanimate torture device of the cross! We do not genuflect to or bow to pieces of wood or metal. That smacks of idolatry.
I can see how it might look like that. On Good Friday, all the parishes around the world will celebrate the Liturgy of the Lord’s Passion, which includes a reading of a Gospel account of the Passion of Christ, Holy Communion and veneration of the Cross. During the seventh century, the Roman Church adopted the practice of Adoration of the Cross from the Church in Jerusalem, where a fragment of wood which is believed to be the Lord’s cross had been venerated every year on Good Friday since the fourth century.

Traditionally, a part of the Holy Cross was said to have been discovered by St. Helen, the mother of the emperor Constantine on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 326. A coffer of gold-plated silver which contains the wood of the Cross was brought forward.

The bishop placed the relic on a table in the chapel of the Crucifixion and the faithful went closer to it, touching brow, eyes and lips to the wood as the priest said (and as every priest has done ever since): ‘Behold, the Wood of the Cross.’

The adoration or veneration of an image or anything that represents the Cross of Christ does not actually mean that we adore the material image. As we kneel before the crucifix and kiss it, we are not adoring the material image rather, we are paying the highest honor to the Cross of Our Lord as the instrument of our salvation.

Because the Cross of Jesus is inseparable from His sacrifice, as we reverence His Cross we, in effect, adore Christ.

Therefore, we proclaim: ‘We adore You, O Christ, and we bless You because by Your Holy Cross You have Redeemed the World.’ These are the words that are spoken at each station of the cross during Lent.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I can see how it might look like that. On Good Friday, all the parishes around the world will celebrate the Liturgy of the Lord’s Passion, which includes a reading of a Gospel account of the Passion of Christ, Holy Communion and veneration of the Cross. During the seventh century, the Roman Church adopted the practice of Adoration of the Cross from the Church in Jerusalem, where a fragment of wood which is believed to be the Lord’s cross had been venerated every year on Good Friday since the fourth century.

Traditionally, a part of the Holy Cross was said to have been discovered by St. Helen, the mother of the emperor Constantine on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 326. A coffer of gold-plated silver which contains the wood of the Cross was brought forward.

The bishop placed the relic on a table in the chapel of the Crucifixion and the faithful went closer to it, touching brow, eyes and lips to the wood as the priest said (and as every priest has done ever since): ‘Behold, the Wood of the Cross.’

The adoration or veneration of an image or anything that represents the Cross of Christ does not actually mean that we adore the material image. As we kneel before the crucifix and kiss it, we are not adoring the material image rather, we are paying the highest honor to the Cross of Our Lord as the instrument of our salvation.

Because the Cross of Jesus is inseparable from His sacrifice, as we reverence His Cross we, in effect, adore Christ.

Therefore, we proclaim: ‘We adore You, O Christ, and we bless You because by Your Holy Cross You have Redeemed the World.’ These are the words that are spoken at each station of the cross during Lent.
Sorry, I don't buy that Catholics are not actually adoring the cross itself., but Christ through the cross. Do you really need a cross to kiss and bow to,in order to adore Jesus Christ?

If Jesus had lived and died in more modern times, and if he had died by the electric chair, would Catholics venerate, kiss, and adore reproductions of that chair? If Jesus had been hung by a noose of rope, would Catholics kiss, adore, and bow to a reproduction of a hangman's noose?

We should not venerate and bow down to inanimate objects. We can adore Jesus just fine without doing so.
 

LifeIn

Well-known member
Sorry, I don't buy that Catholics are not actually adoring the cross itself., but Christ through the cross. Do you really need a cross to kiss and bow to,in order to adore Jesus Christ?
We don't have to, but it helps to have a physical object to represent an abstract concept.


If Jesus had lived and died in more modern times, and if he had died by the electric chair, would Catholics venerate, kiss, and adore reproductions of that chair? If Jesus had been hung by a noose of rope, would Catholics kiss, adore, and bow to a reproduction of a hangman's noose?
Alternative history speculations are always problematic. But perhaps 100 years from now they might do that. The earliest Christians - those of the generation for whom Jesus was current events and not history - did not venerate the cross. For them the experience of Christ incarnate was fresh in their minds. For them the cross was still a symbol of degradation, just as a noose might be for us today. If you told Peter, James, and John the year after Jesus rose that some day followers of Christ were going to place images of that cross in their places of worship in a place of honor where all the faithful could look upon it, they would likely have thought you were crazy. It would be just like we would feel if today Jesus had been hung by a noose and someone told us that some day there would be a noose hanging at the front of every place of worship for his followers. But over time, that might very well come to be. As I said, such speculation is pure guesswork.
 

mica

Well-known member
We don't have to, but it helps to have a physical object to represent an abstract concept.

...
it helps - what?

Those who are His don't need a physical object to represent Him and His sacrifice. We have Him within our hearts.

Christ and His sacrifice is not an abstract concept to believers.

There's a reason God gave a commandment against worshiping things, items, material things.. .instead of Christ Himself.
 

LifeIn

Well-known member
Those who are His don't need a physical object to represent Him and His sacrifice. We have Him within our hearts.
Good for you. For the rest of us that are desiring to have Him in our hearts, we need all the help we can get.


Christ and His sacrifice is not an abstract concept to believers.
The are abstract if you have never seen or heard or touched your faith, but only heard about it in words.

There's a reason God gave a commandment against worshiping things...
which is not what we are doing, despite the constant claim that we are.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Good for you. For the rest of us that are desiring to have Him in our hearts, we need all the help we can get....
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
I can see how it might look like that. On Good Friday, all the parishes around the world will celebrate the Liturgy of the Lord’s Passion, which includes a reading of a Gospel account of the Passion of Christ, Holy Communion and veneration of the Cross. During the seventh century, the Roman Church adopted the practice of Adoration of the Cross from the Church in Jerusalem, where a fragment of wood which is believed to be the Lord’s cross had been venerated every year on Good Friday since the fourth century.

Traditionally, a part of the Holy Cross was said to have been discovered by St. Helen, the mother of the emperor Constantine on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 326. A coffer of gold-plated silver which contains the wood of the Cross was brought forward.

The bishop placed the relic on a table in the chapel of the Crucifixion and the faithful went closer to it, touching brow, eyes and lips to the wood as the priest said (and as every priest has done ever since): ‘Behold, the Wood of the Cross.’

The adoration or veneration of an image or anything that represents the Cross of Christ does not actually mean that we adore the material image. As we kneel before the crucifix and kiss it, we are not adoring the material image rather, we are paying the highest honor to the Cross of Our Lord as the instrument of our salvation.

Because the Cross of Jesus is inseparable from His sacrifice, as we reverence His Cross we, in effect, adore Christ.

Therefore, we proclaim: ‘We adore You, O Christ, and we bless You because by Your Holy Cross You have Redeemed the World.’ These are the words that are spoken at each station of the cross during Lent.
Lot of rituals.
\
Rituals vs relationship.

None of those rituals come from the New Testament church except communion.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Good for you. For the rest of us that are desiring to have Him in our hearts, we need all the help we can get.



The are abstract if you have never seen or heard or touched your faith, but only heard about it in words.


which is not what we are doing, despite the constant claim that we are.
Why the Holy Spirit is not doing it for you, He is not creating that desire in your heart?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Good for you. For the rest of us that are desiring to have Him in our hearts, we need all the help we can get.

So, can't rely on the Holy Spirit, eh?
The are abstract if you have never seen or heard or touched your faith, but only heard about it in words.


which is not what we are doing, despite the constant claim that we are.
Venerating a cross, bowing and genuflecting to it, an inanimate object of torture and death, still smacks of worship.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
We don't have to, but it helps to have a physical object to represent an abstract concept.

you can have a cross as decoration to remind you, if you like--but no need to bow before it, genuflect in front of it, or kiss it.
Alternative history speculations are always problematic. But perhaps 100 years from now they might do that. The earliest Christians - those of the generation for whom Jesus was current events and not history - did not venerate the cross. For them the experience of Christ incarnate was fresh in their minds. For them the cross was still a symbol of degradation, just as a noose might be for us today. If you told Peter, James, and John the year after Jesus rose that some day followers of Christ were going to place images of that cross in their places of worship in a place of honor where all the faithful could look upon it, they would likely have thought you were crazy. It would be just like we would feel if today Jesus had been hung by a noose and someone told us that some day there would be a noose hanging at the front of every place of worship for his followers. But over time, that might very well come to be. As I said, such speculation is pure guesswork.
Every church I have ever been in, in my denomination, has a cross over the altar. It reminds us of Jesus' sacrifice on it. The fact that it is empty reminds us that Jesus rose from the dead. No one genuflects to it, kisses it, or bows to it.

As for using the cross as a symbol of the entire Gospel message, Paul did that early on, calling it the "message of the cross." He did so several places. So, using a cross as a symbol of the entire Gospel message was a concept used early on in the church. There is even some archaeological evidence for the cross being used as a symbol of the church--along with the fish--by the late first century.

But what would REALLY shock Paul and the other apostles would be to see believers bowing to a cross, kissing it, and genuflecting in front of it. I cannot see any of the apostles doing that...can you?

you are desperately trying to justify the unjustifiable. Why O why isn't God in Christ Jesus enough for Catholics to worship, pray to, and venerate?
 

LifeIn

Well-known member
So, can't rely on the Holy Spirit, eh?
Jesus: "Go and wash in the pool of Siloam."
Blind man: "Is it really necessary? Can't you just make me see?"
Jesus: "If you want to see, go and wash in the pool of Siloam."
Blind man: "But Lord, your disciple Matthew says you just touched the eyes of those blind men in Galilee and they could see right away. I want to rely totally on you just like they did."
Jesus: "Excuse me, but I think I will go and talk to that other blind man over there. He is the one my disciple John will write about years from now."
- - - (a fictional version of John 9:1-7)

But seriously, the Catholic view of this issue is that all humanity is made by God to be in communion with God. The desire for this communion is built-in to the nature of all mankind, even unto today. This can be thought of as a universal prompting by the Holy Spirit, if you like. However mankind is also fallen, so this prompting by the Holy Spirit, although given to all without exception, is often ignored and crowded out by worldly desires. Also the condition of having faith is a continuum. A person with a small amount of faith can, by turning to God and asking sincerely, be given more faith. That is why reading of scripture is profitable. It enables one to take a small amount of faith and find that faith strengthened. It is also why prayer is profitable. And that is why Catholics avail themselves of every opportunity to also strengthen their faith through scripture, prayer, the sacraments, sacramentals, religious art, religious music, and physical objects like a replica of a cross.

This also answers the question of how can one who does not have faith even ask God for anything? The answer is that everyone has in their nature that gentle prompting of the Holy Spirit. So in that sense the Holy Spirit comes first. If the person responds to that prompting, they may turn to God to ask for more faith. If they are sincere, the Holy Spirit responds and they are given what they need. This is sometimes called a faith journey, and it takes up the entire lifetime of the faithful.
 

mica

Well-known member
...
This also answers the question of how can one who does not have faith even ask God for anything? The answer is that everyone has in their nature that gentle prompting of the Holy Spirit. So in that sense the Holy Spirit comes first. If the person responds to that prompting, they may turn to God to ask for more faith. If they are sincere, the Holy Spirit responds and they are given what they need. This is sometimes called a faith journey, and it takes up the entire lifetime of the faithful.
how do you know that? what is it like? how do you know it is the Holy Spirit?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Jesus: "Go and wash in the pool of Siloam."
Blind man: "Is it really necessary? Can't you just make me see?"

Jesus: "If you want to see, go and wash in the pool of Siloam."
Blind man: "But Lord, your disciple Matthew says you just touched the eyes of those blind men in Galilee and they could see right away. I want to rely totally on you just like they did."
Jesus: "Excuse me, but I think I will go and talk to that other blind man over there. He is the one my disciple John will write about years from now."
- - - (a fictional version of John 9:1-7)

These folks were obeying the Son of God--not a mere man, like the pope.



But seriously, the Catholic view of this issue is that all humanity is made by God to be in communion with God. The desire for this communion is built-in to the nature of all mankind, even unto today. This can be thought of as a universal prompting by the Holy Spirit, if you like. However mankind is also fallen, so this prompting by the Holy Spirit, although given to all without exception, is often ignored and crowded out by worldly desires. Also the condition of having faith is a continuum. A person with a small amount of faith can, by turning to God and asking sincerely, be given more faith. That is why reading of scripture is profitable. It enables one to take a small amount of faith and find that faith strengthened. It is also why prayer is profitable. And that is why Catholics avail themselves of every opportunity to also strengthen their faith through scripture, prayer, the sacraments, sacramentals, religious art, religious music, and physical objects like a replica of a cross.

Prayer and studying God's word are great, and Biblical. But--you cannot strengthen your faith unless you actually kiss a cross, bow to it, and geneflect in front of it? Looking at it and remembering who died on it would not be enough? There is nothing you can write that will justify such idolatrous actions toward the cross.

This also answers the question of how can one who does not have faith even ask God for anything? The answer is that everyone has in their nature that gentle prompting of the Holy Spirit. So in that sense the Holy Spirit comes first. If the person responds to that prompting, they may turn to God to ask for more faith. If they are sincere, the Holy Spirit responds and they are given what they need. This is sometimes called a faith journey, and it takes up the entire lifetime of the faithful.

Indeed the only way anyone can ask to have their faith strengthened would be if they already had some faith to begin with, the gift of the Holy Spirit. The unregenerated who are spiritually dead in their sins will feel no need to ask that something they did not have would be strengthened.Why should they? They are spiritually dead!
 
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