Trinitarian confusion at Romans 9:5

Steven Avery

Well-known member
No, I'm not using it incorrectly. I've explained ad nauseam how I read the text -- a string of nominatives all with the same referent. We don't need fancy grammatical categories to explain this text, and wouldn't need it if there weren't a history of interpretation involving critical theology.

Are you saying that

over all
God
blessed for ever

have the same referent?

Thanks!

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.
 

Gryllus Maior

Well-known member
Are you saying that

over all
God
blessed for ever

have the same referent?

Thanks!

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.
I don't know why plain English isn't good enough. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
if he cannot do that, then is not God!
I’ve got news for you. The God of the bible cannot do certain things, — like lying, dying, becoming a man or transforming himself into one , contradicting himself ( a species of lying), murdering, obfuscating, etc. I think you are mistaking the God of the Bible for some other god, specifically the lying god, aka Satan.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I'm not answering to your vision of an anthropomorphic Logos, which is a red herring. I only know a Spiritual Logos, the eternal revelator of the Father. May be it is in apprehending the concept of Spirit that your issue with Jesus being the eternal Logos lies.
I rest my case.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
I've given you substance. John 6:63. Jesus shows his association with the Logos. That association continues after his resurrection Rev 19:13. How can you make out that Jesus is other than the Logos become flesh (from scripture)? Do you have any alternative that stands up to scrutiny from scripture?
You won’t even tell us if Logos was alive before becoming flesh. Instead, you are giving lame excuses which lack all substance. Enough time has been wasted on your nonsense obfuscations.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Are you saying that

over all
God
blessed for ever


have the same referent?

Thanks!

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.
He seems to be taking ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων ( “the one over all) and Θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ( “ God blessed for ever”), as appositives to ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα.

But one can never be sure with him, as he does not use precise grammatical terminology for what he is doing here, perhaps for the purpose of plausible deniability.

It’s frankly annoying and not worth the energy one has to put in to try to pin him down on this score; it’s a little bit like attempting to cage the Devil, — a fool’s errand. The Lord rebuke him.
 

cjab

Well-known member
You won’t even tell us if Logos was alive before becoming flesh. Instead, you are giving lame excuses which lack all substance. Enough time has been wasted on your nonsense obfuscations.
You obviously missed my John 6:63 quote, just as you missed my John 1:1a exegesis. How can the giver of life not be alive? How can what is "in the beginning" not be alive? I rest my case. Since you ignore everything I say, waste of time talking to you.
 
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YeshuaFan

Well-known member
I’ve got news for you. The God of the bible cannot do certain things, — like lying, dying, becoming a man or transforming himself into one , contradicting himself ( a species of lying), murdering, obfuscating, etc. I think you are mistaking the God of the Bible for some other god, specifically the lying god, aka Satan.
Jesus is God
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
You obviously missed my John 6:63 quote, just as you missed my John 1:1a exegesis. How can the giver of life not be alive? How can what is "in the beginning" not be alive? I rest my case. Since you ignore everything I say, waste of time talking to you.
You didn’t say this before ( bold above).

Ok, so we have now established that you believe the Logos was alive before becoming a human being. This is nonsense , and contradicts the biblical definition of what a human being is. According to the bible, human beings are not alive before they are conceived or created.
 

cjab

Well-known member
You didn’t say this before ( bold above).

Ok, so we have now established that you believe the Logos was alive before becoming a human being. This is nonsense , and contradicts the biblical definition of what a human being is. According to the bible, human beings are not alive before they are conceived or created.
That is, the human beings "from below." Ὑμεῖς ἐκ τῶν κάτω ἐστέ. Christ said he was from above. So your point is irrelevant.

1 Cor 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit."

If Jesus became a life giving spirit, and he suggested that he would return to his former position, (John 6:62), then this affirms he was that life giving Spirit before he became a man.
 
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The Real John Milton

Well-known member
That is, the human beings "from below." Ὑμεῖς ἐκ τῶν κάτω ἐστέ. Christ said he was from above. So your point is irrelevant.

1 Cor 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit."

If Jesus became a life giving spirit, and he suggested that he would return to his former position, (John 6:62), then this affirms he was that life giving Spirit before he became a man.
“Below” and “above” do not denote two different types of humans. You are eisegeting.
 

cjab

Well-known member
“Below” and “above” do not denote two different types of humans. You are eisegeting.
Quite so: they denote the same human being but with different origins. One whose soul was created out of nothing, the other whose soul wasn't created out of nothing. where the souls of both have the same form.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Quite so: they denote the same human being but with different origins. One whose soul was created out of nothing, the other whose soul wasn't created out of nothing. where the souls of both have the same form.
If he was the “ same” human being as us, he would not have literally existed before his birth. Your Jesus is not a human being by the biblical definition. You’re just playing mindless word games at this point to try to get around this .
 
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cjab

Well-known member
If he was the “ same” human being as us, he would not have literally existed before his birth. Your Jesus is not a human being by the biblical definition. You’re just playing mindless word games at this point to try to get around this .
Now you're just playing with words. Heaven is another dimension and another jurisdiction. On earth Jesus didn't literally exist before he was born and he was the same man as any other, as Heb 2 says. It strikes me that you cannot distinguish heaven from earth, or Spirit from flesh. What religion you are I know not.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Now you're just playing with words. Heaven is another dimension and another jurisdiction. On earth Jesus didn't literally exist before he was born and he was the same man as any other, as Heb 2 says. It strikes me that you cannot distinguish heaven from earth, or Spirit from flesh. What religion you are I know not.
Nonsense. He was the same Jesus, whether on earth or in Heaven.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Nonsense. He was the same Jesus, whether on earth or in Heaven.
I've already quoted the definitive verse that says he wasn't the "same" Jesus: he was elevated to the right hand of God, which entailed, per 1 Cor 15:45 "So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit."

A "life giving Spirit" isn't a "human being" for "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" 1 Cor 15:50.
 
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