Trinitarians have a pronoun problem

GeneZ

GeneZ

Well-known member
Andreas said:
It's not painfully confusing to some people, it is confusing to ALL people. It's just that some have settled into a sort of hazy ambiguity and have learned to live with it rather than growing in the knowledge of God from the Bible. The doctrine of the Trinity is a show stopper in regards to growing in the knowledge of God.
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Not all things confusing are "painfully" confusing.

Many will find the Trinity at first simply to be confusing if they have established a trusting in God.
Its when they have an ego/pride problem to deal with it becomes painful. They hate being made to feel dumb. They react...

Those who become humble in spirit have no problem when feeling dumb before God.
It becomes an expected part of the learning process.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
and your ways are not my ways.”
This is the Lord’s declaration.
“For as heaven is higher than earth,
so my ways are higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts."


Isaiah 55:8-9
 
A

Andreas

Well-known member
GeneZ said:
Not all things confusing are "painfully" confusing.

Many will find the Trinity at first simply to be confusing if they have established a trusting in God.
Its when they have an ego/pride problem to deal with it becomes painful. They hate being made to feel dumb. They react...

Those who become humble in spirit have no problem when feeling dumb before God.
It becomes an expected part of the learning process.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
and your ways are not my ways.”
This is the Lord’s declaration.
“For as heaven is higher than earth,
so my ways are higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts."


Isaiah 55:8-9
Click to expand...

Yes indeed. But there is a difference between attempting to understand something difficult where we know we are falling short and something that is an obvious contradiction. Like the CNN reporter standing in front of a building raging in fire and announcing a mostly peaceful protest. Don't believe what you see, but what we say.

A great example of this is the Trinitarian term "eternally begotten Son". A full empty water bottle that is filled to the brim.
 
GeneZ

GeneZ

Well-known member
Andreas said:
Yes indeed. But there is a difference between attempting to understand something difficult where we know we are falling short and something that is an obvious contradiction. Like the CNN reporter standing in front of a building raging in fire and announcing a mostly peaceful protest. Don't believe what you see, but what we say.

A great example of this is the Trinitarian term "eternally begotten Son". A full empty water bottle that is filled to the brim.
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Do you understand what eternally begotten means?
 
GeneZ

GeneZ

Well-known member
Andreas said:
No. Please tell us what "eternally begotten SON" means...
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"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ​
He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him ​
nothing was made that has been made.." John 1:3​

That includes His soul.

He preceded all things made.

Part l ......
 
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Photine

Photine

Well-known member
GeneZ said:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him
nothing was made that has been made.." John 1:3

That includes His soul.

He preceded all things made.

Part l ......
Click to expand...


That didn't answer their question.
 
GeneZ

GeneZ

Well-known member
Part ll .....


“You are worthy, our Lord and God,​
to receive glory and honor and power,​
for you created all things,​
and by your will they were created​
and have their being.” Revelation 4:11​
​

Since He created all things? He could not have been created.

That lets us know at least that he is eternally existing.

But, it still does not explain how he was "begotten" by the Father. Not made, nor created...

grace and peace .....
 
Photine

Photine

Well-known member
GeneZ said:
Part ll .....


“You are worthy, our Lord and God,​
to receive glory and honor and power,​
for you created all things,​
and by your will they were created​
and have their being.” Revelation 4:11​
​

Since He created all things? He could not have been created.

That lets us know at least that he is eternally existing.

But, it still does not explain how he was "begotten" by the Father. Not made, nor created...

grace and peace .....
Click to expand...

In other words you made one huge post in two separate parts and yet avoided answering his question.
 
A

Andreas

Well-known member
GeneZ said:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ​
He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him ​
nothing was made that has been made.." John 1:3​

That includes His soul.

He preceded all things made.

Part l ......
Click to expand...

Where is the term Son or begotten used here? So, you are ambiguous and really don't address the question. In sum, what John 1:1 is saying is not an eternally begotten Son. You are reading into it what is not there.
 
A

Andreas

Well-known member
GeneZ said:
Part ll .....


“You are worthy, our Lord and God,​
to receive glory and honor and power,​
for you created all things,​
and by your will they were created​
and have their being.” Revelation 4:11​
​

Since He created all things? He could not have been created.

That lets us know at least that he is eternally existing.

But, it still does not explain how he was "begotten" by the Father. Not made, nor created...

grace and peace .....
Click to expand...

God is eternal and HIs word is with him like your word is with you. God's word is not another person of him and more than your word is another person of you. The Word is God's self expression. The begotten Son event occurs when God becomes flesh. So the begetting is a real event in history (Luke 1:35), and Luke 1:35 tells us why this child is called the Son.

What I'm saying is that there is a different and more accurate way to view the Father, Son and Holy Spirit than the Trinity. When one is steeped in the Trinity for so long it can be difficult to peel away the mindset it has created in viewing God. It is a false paradigm of viewing God and getting out of its grip is like picking off cockle burrs from a wool sweater.
 
C

cjab

Well-known member
Andreas said:
God is eternal and HIs word is with him like your word is with you. God's word is not another person of him and more than your word is another person of you. The Word is God's self expression. The begotten Son event occurs when God becomes flesh. So the begetting is a real event in history (Luke 1:35), and Luke 1:35 tells us why this child is called the Son.
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This is untrue. First, God is beyond your conception. How many "persons" are within God is unknown to you because God is invisible. What can be known is the subject of revelation. God is complex and unitary (united) and we can't limit God.

As to this, it is clear that "the Logos" is a person (divine thought/command/action centre) distinct from "the (power of) God" per Jn 1:1b; as also seen from Revelation., where God and the Lamb are always distinguished.
 
GeneZ

GeneZ

Well-known member
Andreas said:
Where is the term Son or begotten used here? So, you are ambiguous and really don't address the question. In sum, what John 1:1 is saying is not an eternally begotten Son. You are reading into it what is not there.
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Not there. Its probably one of the best known verses to Christians. But, since you swerved off the road.

Try sticking with what you avoided.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ​
He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him ​
nothing was made that has been made.." John 1:3​
​
This!​
​
Through him all things were made; without him ​
nothing was made that has been made..​
​
...............​
 
GeneZ

GeneZ

Well-known member
Andreas said:
God is eternal and HIs word is with him like your word is with you.
Click to expand...



In the mean while...

If the Word is eternal? Its God. Only God is eternal.

Man has his own words because man was designed and created in the image of God.
 
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GeneZ

GeneZ

Well-known member
In the mean while...


"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.​
We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, ​
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14​
​
​
​
That flesh was not God. The One living through that body is God.

​
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:​
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me." Hebrews 10:5​
​
Where did He come from? ​
 
J

johnny guitar

Well-known member
GeneZ said:
In the mean while...


"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.​
We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, ​
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14​
​
​
​
That flesh was not God. The One living through that body is God.

​
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:​
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,​
but a body you prepared for me." Hebrews 10:5​
​
Where did He come from? ​
Click to expand...
IOW Jesus Crist, The God-Man.
 
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