Trinitarians have a pronoun problem

Still trying to force The Holy Spirit being Christ.
no need to force anything. as u been told, the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit. now, let's take a close look at JESUS the Holy Spirit.

Scripture #1. 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." it was the Holy Spirit that prophesied in these holy men of the OT correct. now this,

Scripture #2. 1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:" 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

if the Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit, then one has two Spirits, and that's anti-Bible, and anti-Christ.

John 4:24a clearly states God is a, a, a, a, ONE Spirit. so that eliminates any trinary, and binary Gods.

:ninja:
 
He communicated as BOTH.
He knew who He was. In that sense. Yes. Prophets spoke as if they were the mouth of God at at times.

Know the story of the Prince and the Pauper?
How a prince and a pauper exchanged places because they looked identical?
Man could not tell who Jesus really was, yet knew what He said He was.

Jesus communicated that He is God. But, not in a manner they men could not be free to deny it.
He had to appear vulnerable in order to be later crucified.

How could God present Himself as a man?

In such a manner? That men would feel free to kill him if they so desired?


That was the fine line Jesus needed to walk in order to fulfill the Cross!
 
EVASION. You did NOT deal with Acts 5.

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that
such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned."


Titus 3:10-11

Its your hope that he will change by your "reasoning."

How many fallen angels were reasoned with by God before He finally let them go to be as they wished?

We can become a reenactment of themselves before the angels to watch.

God gave us Titus 3:10-11 so that we do not wear ourselves out.

That we find our peace in knowing God, not in getting those who choose evil to change their ways. That's God's job if its ever going to happen. Look at Paul's conversion as an example.

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with them."

You are wearing me out watching you not obeying that verse. Just 'walk away.' God does not need our help for something He can not do.
If God could change evil? Satan would now be in heaven worshiping the Lord! Jesus died for our sins. Not for evil.

You already warned him more than two times. Your obligation has been met..

If you could just walk away? He would be left alone to be his own peace.... Which he would not find.

grace and peace .........
 
Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that
such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned."


Titus 3:10-11

Its your hope that he will change by your "reasoning."

How many fallen angels were reasoned with by God before He finally let them go to be as they wished?

We can become a reenactment of themselves before the angels to watch.

God gave us Titus 3:10-11 so that we do not wear ourselves out.

That we find our peace in knowing God, not in getting those who choose evil to change their ways. That's God's job if its ever going to happen. Look at Paul's conversion as an example.

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with them."

You are wearing me out watching you not obeying that verse. Just 'walk away.' God does not need our help for something He can not do.
If God could change evil? Satan would now be in heaven worshiping the Lord! Jesus died for our sins. Not for evil.

You already warned him more than two times. Your obligation has been met..

If you could just walk away? He would be left alone to be his own peace.... Which he would not find.

grace and peace .........
Well said. I will take your advice.
 
Jesus is YHWH. He is "the first" (Revelation 1:17), not the second person in a Trinitarian Godhead, because the Bible says, "in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9). Trinitarians say Jesus is in the Godhead. The Bible says the Godhead is in Him.
Then perhaps the problem here isn't that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit aren't YHVH.
But that you're using terms to make sure that you are in control of who you think they are, instead of letting them be who they actually are.

The thing that I'm seeing here is that you think this is an argument to win, but in this, you appear to have missed that we are to be engaged in a relationship with YHVH, through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit regenerates us, and works in our lives, he seals, and dwells in us as a deposit and guarantee of our inheritance in Christ.

So.... instead of trying to figure out how to make others believe you are better than they are, engage in learning to follow Jesus as he is.
 
Right. According to Trinitarian Catholic Catechism 252...

The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

So when Trinitarians refer to God as ONE, they are supposed to use the pronoun "IT".

So if they are praying to the one "substance", they should pray...
"God loves you and IT has a plan for your life."

Or if they are praying to the three "persons", they should pray...
"God loves you and THEY has a plan for your life."
All statements are strawmen.
 
Keep in mind....

The Father is Deity
The Son is Deity
The Holy Spirit is Deity.


So? What differentiates all three from the other?


The Father consists solely of Deity.
One nature only.
No second nature in union for the Father.

The Son and Holy Spirit each have two natures.
Natures that are in union with the Father.

What is the second nature of the Son that is in union with God?
The Son has a soul = humanity.

What is the second nature of the Holy Spirit that is in union with God?
The Holy Spirit has a spirit, like an angel is a spirit!
(unlike the Son who is also soul)

Both angels and men are represented in the Trinity.

Both angels and mankind are very.. very.. very special to the Father.

grace and peace +
 
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Keep in mind....

The Father is Deity
The Son is Deity
The Holy Spirit is Deity.


So? What differentiates all three from the other?


The Father consists solely of Deity.
One nature only.
No second nature in union for the Father.

The Son and Holy Spirit each have two natures.
Natures that are in union with the Father.

What is the second nature of the Son that is in union with God?
The Son has a soul = humanity.

What is the second nature of the Holy Spirit that is in union with God?
The Holy Spirit has a spirit, like an angel is a spirit!
(unlike the Son who is also soul)

Both angels and men are represented in the Trinity.

Both angels and mankind are very.. very.. very special to the Father.

grace and peace +

The Messiah is the Spirit (2 Cor 3:17).

Keep ignoring the mammoth in the room. : )
 
Then perhaps the problem here isn't that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit aren't YHVH.
But that you're using terms to make sure that you are in control of who you think they are, instead of letting them be who they actually are.

The thing that I'm seeing here is that you think this is an argument to win, but in this, you appear to have missed that we are to be engaged in a relationship with YHVH, through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit regenerates us, and works in our lives, he seals, and dwells in us as a deposit and guarantee of our inheritance in Christ.

So.... instead of trying to figure out how to make others believe you are better than they are, engage in learning to follow Jesus as he is.

Are you projecting? An important part of following Christ is knowing who He is. Using your logic, we should ignore doctrine and just "follow Jesus". The problem with that is that He expects us to grow in the knowledge of Him and one can't separate doctrine from following Christ. While it doesn't please the Lord to argue about this, a civil discussion can be done wherein those that discuss can both learn. In the case of discussing the Trinity, with Trinitarians, it helps me to see if there is something I'm not seeing as I should.

Most Trinitarians are superficial in their knowledge of the Trinity. The problem is that when someone wants to get deeper, they go down long trails of philosophy (Colossians 2:8) but not Biblical truth. The Trinity appears at first glance to make sense to some people in superficial terms, but in practical terms it is a real show stopper to growing in the knowledge of the fullness of Christ.
 
This is untrue. First, God is beyond your conception. How many "persons" are within God is unknown to you because God is invisible. What can be known is the subject of revelation. God is complex and unitary (united) and we can't limit God.

As to this, it is clear that "the Logos" is a person (divine thought/command/action centre) distinct from "the (power of) God" per Jn 1:1b; as also seen from Revelation., where God and the Lamb are always distinguished.

Yes, God is beyond my conception. But fortunately we don't need to go by my opinion because the bible tells us. God says he is I AM and "there is no God beside me". That's singular. It is only when we don't take the plain language of scripture for what it says that we make it more complicated than God intended for us.

As far as God and the Lamb, you are missing the beauty of what God did. The "Lamb" refers to God as man for our redemption. God is not a little space alien that can only do one thing at a time. At least be open to a Biblical view of the nature of God as everywhere present Spirit (Psalm 139; John 4:24). The distinction of God and the Lamb is a distinction between God as He has always existed and His incarnation as the Lamb for our salvation. It is not a distinction up in the eternal Godhead. All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily and we are complete in Him (Colossians 2:9).
 
I did no such thing. If you think you can show me how I did any of this?

You promote the doctrine of the Trinity and in so doing confuse the Biblical view of the eternal Godhead. Paul warned of Trinitarians and Arians who would come later and deny that truly all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily and we are complete in Him (Colossians 2:8-10)
 
Not there. Its probably one of the best known verses to Christians. But, since you swerved off the road.

Try sticking with what you avoided.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him
nothing was made that has been made.." John 1:3​
This!​
Through him all things were made; without him
nothing was made that has been made..
...............​

We are talking about why Trinitarians teach an "eternally begotten Son". It is not the same as talking about the deity of Jesus, According to Luke 1:35, the reason he is called the "Son" is because of his miraculous conception. Can you please read Luke 1:35 and Galatians 4:4?
 
We are talking about why Trinitarians teach an "eternally begotten Son". It is not the same as talking about the deity of Jesus, According to Luke 1:35, the reason he is called the "Son" is because of his miraculous conception. Can you please read Luke 1:35 and Galatians 4:4?

They do not claim to understand how He is eternally begotten. They find in the texts tenses that reveal He is eternally existing.
So, by faith they accept it as being so.

Here is one example. One that average translations skim over and over simplify.


Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard
equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the
likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He
humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death,
even death on a cross. " Philippians 2:6-8


Simple enough?

When someone sticks with the depth of the Greek tenses this is what scholars used to find, and is one reason they claim that He has always been eternally begotten.


Who {Christ}, though He eternally existed in the essence of God,
He did not think equalities {plural} with God a gain to be seized
{means to violently take} and held.


Its no coincidence that scholars who STUDIED from the original languages (before translations came out)
came up with some of the conclusions they had.


We get stuck too often with shallow translations that leave us shrugging our shoulders when such matters come up.
 
They do not claim to understand how He is eternally begotten. They find in the texts tenses that reveal He is eternally existing.
So, by faith they accept it as being so.

Here is one example. One that average translations skim over and over simplify.


Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard
equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the
likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He
humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death,
even death on a cross. " Philippians 2:6-8


Simple enough?

When someone sticks with the depth of the Greek tenses this is what scholars used to find, and is one reason they claim that He has always been eternally begotten.


Who {Christ}, though He eternally existed in the essence of God,
He did not think equalities {plural} with God a gain to be seized
{means to violently take} and held.


Its no coincidence that scholars who STUDIED from the original languages (before translations came out)
came up with some of the conclusions they had.


We get stuck too often with shallow translations that leave us shrugging our shoulders when such matters come up.

There is a difference between an internal contradiction and a mystery that we struggle to understand. A full empty bottle of water is not understandable but not in the same way as trying to understand the relativity of time. Chalking up an absurd contradiction as a "mystery" is empty philosophy and Paul warned us about that (Colossians 2:8).

Jesus eternal? YES. But, the great mistake that Trinitarians made is assuming falsely that Jesus existed as the Son from eternity when the Bible clearly teaches that His existence as the Son had a beginning (Luke 1:35 and Galatians 4:4). There was simply no reason to offer up an absurd contradiction of an "eternally begotten Son", when logically and Biblically everything is against such a thing.

You keep giving verses on the pre-existence of Christ, but NONE of these verses call him "Son" in eternity. He wasn't called the "Son" until he was actually a real "Son" due to a real conception and begetting (Luke 1:35).

Simply call Jesus the one true God from eternity who became the Son of God for our redemption.

God was manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16), not God the Son.
 
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