Trinitarians have a pronoun problem

[GeneZ]

There is a difference between an internal contradiction and a mystery that we struggle to understand. A full empty bottle of water is not understandable but not in the same way as trying to understand the relativity of time. Chalking up an absurd contradiction as a "mystery" is empty philosophy and Paul warned us about that (Colossians 2:8).

Jesus eternal? YES. But, the great mistake that Trinitarians made is assuming falsely that Jesus existed as the Son from eternity when the Bible clearly teaches that His existence as the Son had a beginning (Luke 1:35 and Galatians 4:4). There was simply no reason to offer up an absurd contradiction of an "eternally begotten Son", when logically and Biblically everything is against such a thing.

You keep giving verses on the pre-existence of Christ, but NONE of these verses call him "Son" in eternity. He wasn't called the "Son" until he was actually a real "Son" due to a real conception and begetting (Luke 1:35).

Simply call Jesus the one true God from eternity who became the Son of God for our redemption.

God was manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16), not God the Son.

You at present have no capacity to comprehend it. So its absurd.

Good. Not every one has the same intolerance.

I knew a world renown chef who could not grasp Gary Larson's the 'Far Side." It was just absurd to him. Brilliant chef. But?

So be it.

The Son of God preexisted the Incarnation. The Soul of Jesus was in union with Jehovah before Jesus was born.

Here are some OT examples of Jehovah of the OT having both Deity and Soul. God is 'spirit." God is not 'soul.'


And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah,
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16



Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone
loving violence his soul certainly hates." Psalm 11:5



“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons,
the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred
meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; They are a trouble
to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14

Some will understand. Those who fail to? Let them think it absurd if that gives them comfort.

 

[cjab]

Yes, God is beyond my conception. But fortunately we don't need to go by my opinion because the bible tells us. God says he is I AM and "there is no God beside me". That's singular. It is only when we don't take the plain language of scripture for what it says that we make it more complicated than God intended for us.

Jesus said he "came" from God and "he was sent by God." This infers God is complex in terms of persons - far more complex than you can conceive of.

As far as God and the Lamb, you are missing the beauty of what God did. The "Lamb" refers to God as man for our redemption. God is not a little space alien that can only do one thing at a time. At least be open to a Biblical view of the nature of God as everywhere present Spirit (Psalm 139; John 4:24). The distinction of God and the Lamb is a distinction between God as He has always existed and His incarnation as the Lamb for our salvation.

It is not a distinction up in the eternal Godhead. All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily and we are complete in Him (Colossians 2:9).

What you are missing is that the statement "All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily" is a statement of distinctiveness within God, as is Jn 1:1b. The two are distinct. If they were not, such statements as Col 2:9 and Jn 1:1 are aberrant.

 

[johnny guitar]

We are talking about why Trinitarians teach an "eternally begotten Son". It is not the same as talking about the deity of Jesus, According to Luke 1:35, the reason he is called the "Son" is because of his miraculous conception. Can you please read Luke 1:35 and Galatians 4:4?

The Son was in the beginning and is The Creator of ALL.

 

[GeneZ]

The thought not considered?

Time is a creation. Eternity is without time.
God is eternal, having no beginning and no end.

Before anything was created there was no time.
Everything that is created had to have a beginning.
So time had to be created first.

When God was alone before time existed?
His Son was with Him. The Holy Spirit was with Him.
There was no beginning for the Son and Holy Spirit.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are eternal life.

 

[Christian]

The thought not considered?

Time is a creation. Eternity is without time.
God is eternal, having no beginning and no end.

Before anything was created there was no time.
Everything that is created had to have a beginning.
So time had to be created first.

When God was alone before time existed?
His Son was with Him. The Holy Spirit was with Him.
There was no beginning for the Son and Holy Spirit.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are eternal life.

That should silence the critics.

John 1:1, John 17:5, Colossians 1:15-18, Hebrews 1:1-10 just to name a few.

hope this helps !!!

 

[GeneZ]

That should silence the critics.

John 1:1, John 17:5, Colossians 1:15-18, Hebrews 1:1-10 just to name a few.

hope this helps !!!

Critics are never completely silenced. They can be only silenced to others. But, never themselves.
Hell will be filled with silenced critics who never could be silenced to themselves.

 

[GeneZ]

That should silence the critics.

John 1:1, John 17:5, Colossians 1:15-18, Hebrews 1:1-10 just to name a few.

hope this helps !!!

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ​

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible ​

and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things ​

have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and ​

in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; ​

he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in ​

everything he might have the supremacy."​

​

Jesus (as as a man) was the first one born spiritually alive out from among all the spiritually dead human race.
Jesus did not need to be born again!

"the firstborn from among the dead."

 

[Lilel01]

The thought not considered?

Time is a creation. Eternity is without time.
God is eternal, having no beginning and no end.

Before anything was created there was no time.
Everything that is created had to have a beginning.
So time had to be created first.

When God was alone before time existed?
His Son was with Him. The Holy Spirit was with Him.
There was no beginning for the Son and Holy Spirit.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are eternal life.

Jesus is named as "the Beginning" (Col. 1:18; Prov. 8:22). Jesus existed next to God at the beginning of this material universe. It DOES NOT mean he was from the eternity with God.

When Jesus is called "the Beginning", it means he had an origin, a point when he came to exist, and before that point he did not exist. He said:

"I live because of the Father" in John 6:57 (The Bible in Living English).

 

[GeneZ]

Jesus is named as "the Beginning" (Col. 1:18; Prov. 8:22). Jesus existed next to God at the beginning of this material universe. It DOES NOT mean he was from the eternity with God.

When Jesus is called "the Beginning", it means he had an origin, a point when he came to exist, and before that point he did not exist. He said:

"I live because of the Father" in John 6:57 (The Bible in Living English).

And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn
from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

That speaks of what? His human state of being He made Himself to become!


Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

He was existing as something else prior to becoming as a man!


Philippians 2:6-8 says who He was preceded being a man!
That He had to make himself to become as a man.

That man he became? He had a beginning! Don't confuse the two as you are now doing.


He needed Mary to provide a body for the soul of Jehovah to MAKE HIMSELF be as a man. That human form! Yes! Had a beginning.

The soul that entered the body provided by Mary? That very soul was involved with creating the very concept of a human body!


Nothing was created except through Him. And, in the beginning ( Jesus had created time to give it a beginning) God created the heavens and earth.

The problem is?

This is not for the simple minded. When keywords get locked onto with tunnel vision? And all reasoning is pushed aside, that does not solve problems that are meant to be understood.

God's enabling grace makes the simple to become wise.

When one looks back and see what he now knows he should not have understood? Then that believer will know that God's grace has had His way with him.

God gives us impossible. To show us what His grace can do for us.

grace and peace .........

 

[Lilel01]

Trinitarians love to change the meaning of words to their own liking.

The Scripture says:

Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church, he who is the beginning, the firstborn out of the dead, in order that he may take the first place in every respect

Do you know what the expression "the first place in every respect" means? It is NOT about preeminence like some want to translate and give that idea ... IT IS about the first one, like in "the first one, the second one, the third one, etc". Do you get the real idea?

Some people have realized this, and they say: Jesus was begotten, not created. It means exactly the same: Jesus had an origin.

When a person becomes "father"?

 

[johnny guitar]

Jesus is named as "the Beginning" (Col. 1:18; Prov. 8:22). Jesus existed next to God at the beginning of this material universe. It DOES NOT mean he was from the eternity with God.

When Jesus is called "the Beginning", it means he had an origin, a point when he came to exist, and before that point he did not exist. He said:

"I live because of the Father" in John 6:57 (The Bible in Living English).

Jesus is called the beginning because He is THE ORIGIN, SOURCE of ALL creation.

 

[Photine]

Jesus is called the beginning because He is THE ORIGIN, SOURCE of ALL creation.

Yes, exactly; that's the true definition of Arche.

 

[SteveB]

Are you projecting?

🤔🤣
Nope.
I'm not the one trying to argue about something that is clearly stated in the bible.

An important part of following Christ is knowing who He is.

Yep.
Knowing God and Jesus is eternal life . Rather interesting how that requires actually knowing God's Word.

Using your logic, we should ignore doctrine and just "follow Jesus".

Actually, according to 2 Timothy, we're told to study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

The problem with that is that He expects us to grow in the knowledge of Him and one can't separate doctrine from following Christ.

It's curious how that works.
I read in Hebrews 13:9 that our hearts are to be established by grace.
I read in Titus 2:11-14 that grace teaches us.
I read in 2 Peter 1:2-4 that our experience of Grace and Peace is increased, multiplicatively as our knowledge of God and Jesus are increased.
So, I'm not having a problem here.

While it doesn't please the Lord to argue about this, a civil discussion can be done wherein those that discuss can both learn.

And yet, I'm not seeing any civil discussion.
I'm seeing lots of someones who are playing the bully, stomping around and trying to intimidate people into capitulation with their ideas.

Ever read Malachi 3:16-18?
It's pretty cool. I really like it.
I encourage you to read it.

In the case of discussing the Trinity, with Trinitarians, it helps me to see if there is something I'm not seeing as I should.

I think part of the reason why this is the case is because people have only the bible to understand what the nature of God, without engaging him in prayer, and studying the bible.
He tells us in Deuteronomy 29:29 that he's given us everything we need to know him and live a life that honors him.

Most Trinitarians are superficial in their knowledge of the Trinity.

I can't help most. I can only take responsibility for me.
I can encourage, explain, describe, etc... to others, but if they won't listen and follow Jesus themselves, that's on them.

The problem is that when someone wants to get deeper, they go down long trails of philosophy (Colossians 2:8) but not Biblical truth.

Exactly.

The Trinity appears at first glance to make sense to some people in superficial terms, but in practical terms it is a real show stopper to growing in the knowledge of the fullness of Christ.

Only if they get stuck.

Jesus said in John 16:13-15

Joh 16:13-15 WEB 13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine and will declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine; therefore I said that he takes of mine and will declare it to you.

So. It seems pretty clear that the Holy Spirit is our teacher, which means we need to study the bible. The whole bible.

 

[Photine]

🤔🤣
Nope.
I'm not the one trying to argue about something that is clearly stated in the bible.


Yep.
Knowing God and Jesus is eternal life . Rather interesting how that requires actually knowing God's Word.


Actually, according to 2 Timothy, we're told to study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

It's curious how that works.
I read in Hebrews 13:9 that our hearts are to be established by grace.
I read in Titus 2:11-14 that grace teaches us.
I read in 2 Peter 1:2-4 that our experience of Grace and Peace is increased, multiplicatively as our knowledge of God and Jesus are increased.
So, I'm not having a problem here.




And yet, I'm not seeing any civil discussion.
I'm seeing lots of someones who are playing the bully, stomping around and trying to intimidate people into capitulation with their ideas.

Ever read Malachi 3:16-18?
It's pretty cool. I really like it.
I encourage you to read it.



I think part of the reason why this is the case is because people have only the bible to understand what the nature of God, without engaging him in prayer, and studying the bible.
He tells us in Deuteronomy 29:29 that he's given us everything we need to know him and live a life that honors him.

I can't help most. I can only take responsibility for me.
I can encourage, explain, describe, etc... to others, but if they won't listen and follow Jesus themselves, that's on them.

Exactly.

Only if they get stuck.

Jesus said in John 16:13-15

Joh 16:13-15 WEB 13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine and will declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine; therefore I said that he takes of mine and will declare it to you.

So. It seems pretty clear that the Holy Spirit is our teacher, which means we need to study the bible. The whole bible.

The Spirit who proceeds from the Father is Messiah (2 Cor 3:17).

 

[SteveB]

The Spirit who proceeds from the Father is Messiah (2 Cor 3:17).

The problem here is that the Holy Spirit didn't become a man and then die for the sin of man.

We further read in John 4:23-24 that God is Spirit and seeks people who will worship him in Spirit and Truth.

This is why it's so important to take the time to learn the whole bible and the whole counsel of God.

 

[Photine]

The problem here is that the Holy Spirit didn't become a man and then die for the sin of man.

We further read in John 4:23-24 that God is Spirit and seeks people who will worship him in Spirit and Truth.

This is why it's so important to take the time to learn the whole bible and the whole counsel of God.

Evasion of 2 Cor 3:17.

By the way yes the Holy Spirit did become a man and was crucified.

Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

 

[Photine]

Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church, he who is the beginning, the firstborn out of the dead, in order that he may take the first place in every respect

Only God takes first place in every respect.

 

[GeneZ]

Trinitarians love to change the meaning of words to their own liking.

The Scripture says:

Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church, he who is the beginning, the firstborn out of the dead, in order that he may take the first place in every respect

Yes! He is the Fulness of God IN BODILY FORM! And, when Jesus was born physically? He was the first person to be born spiritually alive, in a world of fallen man who was spiritually dead. That is why it says.... the firstborn out of the dead.

Fully God manifested in a body? Never happened with God like that before.

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form." Col 2:9​

That makes Him " Absolutely being God in a Body."

When we are in our resurrection body? We will be able to speak with God in a very direct, overt, and concrete way. Never before was this possible!

Are you saying that He is not 'God in a Body' since His ascension and glorification?

 

[SteveB]

Evasion of 2 Cor 3:17.

Nope.

By the way yes the Holy Spirit did become a man and was crucified.

Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Great passage, but you're ignoring the passages of the entire context.

Paul is talking to the Ephesian elders...
Act 20:17-38 WEB 17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to himself the elders of the assembly. 18 When they had come to him, he said to them, “You yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, how I was with you all the time, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears, and with trials which happened to me by the plots of the Jews; 20 how I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus. 22 Now, behold, I go bound by the Spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there; 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions wait for me. 24 But these things don’t count; nor do I hold my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to fully testify to the Good News of the grace of God. 25 “Now, behold, I know that you all, among whom I went about preaching God’s Kingdom, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you today that I am clean from the blood of all men, 27 for I didn’t shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know that after my departure, vicious wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, remembering that for a period of three years I didn’t cease to admonish everyone night and day with tears. 32 Now, brothers, I entrust you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33 I coveted no one’s silver, gold, or clothing. 34 You yourselves know that these hands served my necessities, and those who were with me. 35 In all things I gave you an example, that so laboring you ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’” 36 When he had spoken these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all. 37 They all wept freely, and fell on Paul’s neck and kissed him, 38 sorrowing most of all because of the word which he had spoken, that they should see his face no more. Then they accompanied him to the ship.

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

Exactly.

The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit
ARE YHVH.

All three make up the God, YHVH.

 

[Photine]

Nope.

Great passage, but you're ignoring the passages of the entire context.

Paul is talking to the Ephesian elders...
Act 20:17-38 WEB 17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to himself the elders of the assembly. 18 When they had come to him, he said to them, “You yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, how I was with you all the time, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears, and with trials which happened to me by the plots of the Jews; 20 how I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus. 22 Now, behold, I go bound by the Spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there; 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions wait for me. 24 But these things don’t count; nor do I hold my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to fully testify to the Good News of the grace of God. 25 “Now, behold, I know that you all, among whom I went about preaching God’s Kingdom, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you today that I am clean from the blood of all men, 27 for I didn’t shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know that after my departure, vicious wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, remembering that for a period of three years I didn’t cease to admonish everyone night and day with tears. 32 Now, brothers, I entrust you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33 I coveted no one’s silver, gold, or clothing. 34 You yourselves know that these hands served my necessities, and those who were with me. 35 In all things I gave you an example, that so laboring you ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’” 36 When he had spoken these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all. 37 They all wept freely, and fell on Paul’s neck and kissed him, 38 sorrowing most of all because of the word which he had spoken, that they should see his face no more. Then they accompanied him to the ship.



Exactly.

The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit
ARE YHVH.

All three make up the God, YHVH.

2 Cor 3:17 says Messiah is the Spirit.

Acts 20:28 says the Holy Spirit was crucified. Ditto for Php 2:6.

You are charged with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and denial.

P.s.: Jesus alone is YHVH (2 Thess 2:8; Zech 14:9).