True Vine

Oldsaint24

Active member
Jesus said, "I am the True Vine..."

My question is.......are any unregenerate children of men part of, a branch of, the True Vine? I say absolutely not, that all the branches are children of God. What say you?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Jesus said, "I am the True Vine..."

My question is.......are any unregenerate children of men part of, a branch of, the True Vine? I say absolutely not, that all the branches are children of God. What say you?
You have oversimplified it too much. The scripture you are referring to is much more nuanced than that. Here is the complete text:

John 15:

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


The ramifications of that are huge for Calvinistic and Reformed theology. The two most important conclusions to be drawn from that scripture are:

  1. It is possible to be a true “branch” of the vine, but still to be cut off and cast away for lack of “fruit” (meaning good works), which knocks a huge hole in the Calvinistic “once saved, always saved” heresy. We remain on vine as long as we bring forth “good fruit”.
  2. To “abide in his love” (remain on the vine) one must keep his commandments, which is anathema to “faith alone” heresy Calvinism and Reformed theolog. That knocks another huge hole in the hull Calvinistic theology.
These two principles combined torpedo the whole of Reformed and Calvinistic theology out of the water, and sink the entire ship completely with nothing of it remaining.
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
You have oversimplified it too much. The scripture you are referring to is much more nuanced than that. Here is the complete text:

John 15:

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


The ramifications of that are huge for Calvinistic and Reformed theology. The two most important conclusions to be drawn from that scripture are:

  1. It is possible to be a true “branch” of the vine, but still to be cut off and cast away for lack of “fruit” (meaning good works), which knocks a huge hole in the Calvinistic “once saved, always saved” heresy. We remain on vine as long as we bring forth “good fruit”.
  2. To “abide in his love” (remain on the vine) one must keep his commandments, which is anathema to “faith alone” heresy Calvinism and Reformed theolog. That knocks another huge hole in the hull Calvinistic theology.
These two principles combined torpedo the whole of Reformed and Calvinistic theology out of the water, and sink the entire ship completely with nothing of it remaining.
Intentionally oversimplified. The Calvinist cannot begin to comprehend this teaching of Jesus if they fail to realize that all branches in the True Vine are children of God and cannot be unregenerate children of men. Until they realize this fundamental fact, they will not comprehend the negatives that you and the very verses point out. Seems like they willfully refuse to acknowledge that the Father can cut off children of God from the True Vine , that the unfruitful children, wither and die and are gathered and cast into the fire. You do notice no Calvinist is answering my very simple question, haven't you?
 

civic

Well-known member
It is a simple passage to understand since the entire N.T. says the same thing. There are both wheat and tares, true believers and false brethren, children of God and children of the devil mixed in the church. Jesus said not everyone who says to be Lord Lord will enter the kingdom but only those who do the will of the Father. And we have this illustrated with Jesus own disciples where we know one is the son of the devil, the son of perdition, the betrayer, the one who loved money ad was greedy- the one who did not bear fruit of righteousness none other than judas the branch that was unfruitful and was cut off, the one who was NEVER saved but was just an imposter.

So the Vine and the Vinedresser is easy to understand that not every one who say Jesus is Lord is really born again and has received Eternal Life. Those who have Eternal Life ( His Sheep ) will NEVER PERISH. No one can snatch one of His sheep from His hands or the Fathers hands. They are SECURE in the Godhead with their salvation and are the ones who bear much fruit and thus prove they are His disciples.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. A good tree produces good fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Ye shall know them by their fruits.

Matthew 7
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

hope this helps !!!
 

Septextura

Well-known member
Intentionally oversimplified. The Calvinist cannot begin to comprehend this teaching of Jesus if they fail to realize that all branches in the True Vine are children of God and cannot be unregenerate children of men. Until they realize this fundamental fact, they will not comprehend the negatives that you and the very verses point out. Seems like they willfully refuse to acknowledge that the Father can cut off children of God from the True Vine , that the unfruitful children, wither and die and are gathered and cast into the fire. You do notice no Calvinist is answering my very simple question, haven't you?

You haven't answered the questions from Calvinists. At this point no one is taking you seriously even as a heretic. Stay chummy with the Mormon.

BTW, what you're teaching matches Roman Catholic dogma as per Trent. No wonder you despised Reformed Christianity.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
It is possible to be a true “branch” of the vine, but still to be cut off and cast away for lack of “fruit” (meaning good works), which knocks a huge hole in the Calvinistic “once saved, always saved” heresy.

First of all, you should refrain from attacking Calvinism while you remain so ignorant of what it teaches. Calvinism does NOT teach, "once saved, always saved". We teach "Perseverance (or "preservation") of the Saints", which is different.

Now, as a Mormon, you teach the heresy of "salvation by works" (or perhaps you prefer), "salvation by faith plus works". At any rate, as we see above, you think that we have to CONSTANTLY add "works", or else we will lose our salvation. And of course, such a position is heretical, and contrary to Scripture. That is why Mormons have to constantly IGNORE the following:

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

Further, the reason that those who are truly saved will NEVER lose our salvation (and we "endure to the end", NOT because of our own efforts, but because GOD will ensure that we will endure to the end) is the following:

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

We remain on vine as long as we bring forth “good fruit”.
  1. To “abide in his love” (remain on the vine) one must keep his commandments, which is anathema to “faith alone” heresy Calvinism and Reformed theolog. That knocks another huge hole in the hull Calvinistic theology.

You keep calling "faith alone" a "heresy".

Yet it is YOU and your Mormon "brethren" who have to constantly RUN AWAY from:

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

These two principles combined torpedo the whole of Reformed and Calvinistic theology out of the water, and sink the entire ship completely with nothing of it remaining.

Wow... Your worthless rhetoric here is right off the charts!

I only have one piece of advice for you:

1Kings 20:11 ... ‘Let not him who straps on his armor boast himself as he who takes it off.’”
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
It is a simple passage to understand since the entire N.T. says the same thing. There are both wheat and tares, true believers and false brethren, children of God and children of the devil mixed in the church. Jesus said not everyone who says to be Lord Lord will enter the kingdom but only those who do the will of the Father. And we have this illustrated with Jesus own disciples where we know one is the son of the devil, the son of perdition, the betrayer, the one who loved money ad was greedy- the one who did not bear fruit of righteousness none other than judas the branch that was unfruitful and was cut off, the one who was NEVER saved but was just an imposter.

So the Vine and the Vinedresser is easy to understand that not every one who say Jesus is Lord is really born again and has received Eternal Life. Those who have Eternal Life ( His Sheep ) will NEVER PERISH. No one can snatch one of His sheep from His hands or the Fathers hands. They are SECURE in the Godhead with their salvation and are the ones who bear much fruit and thus prove they are His disciples.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. A good tree produces good fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Ye shall know them by their fruits.

Matthew 7
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

hope this helps !!!
I agree it is a simple passage. But don't understand why you would bring up wheat and tears. So, let's try and clear up something. Jesus is the True Vine and I am sure we have no disagreement there. Now..... Are you saying that branches in the True Vine can be unregenerate children of men?
 
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