trying to keep the Law vs keeping the Law

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Loving God with all one's heart, mind, strength, etc. seems impossible without Divine assistance.
And yet He commands us to. I think it's more of an impossibility when you have more than one master, ie, trinity.

verse 10 says "if" not when
the subject of this OP is the when and how
Israel's eventual Obedience is prophesied, so we know the "if" is a temporary condition
This is in connection with the blessings and curses.

"I have set before you life and death, good and evil" v.15
the same stuff that Adam and Eve dealt with
failure leads to death, and is rooted in evil
what do prayers and good deeds teach about life and death, good and evil?
compared to commanded blood and sacrifices...
That God is the source of all good, life, wealth, prosperity, happiness, etc., but in a more personal way from each other.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Loving God with all one's heart, mind, strength, etc. seems impossible without Divine assistance.

verse 10 says "if" not when
the subject of this OP is the when and how
Israel's eventual Obedience is prophesied, so we know the "if" is a temporary condition

"I have set before you life and death, good and evil" v.15
the same stuff that Adam and Eve dealt with
failure leads to death, and is rooted in evil
what do prayers and good deeds teach about life and death, good and evil?
compared to commanded blood and sacrifices...
although verse ten is part of an entirely different paragraph, and doesn't impact the content of Deut 30:11-14, let's deal with your "if" in verse 10. It simply acknowledges that there will be times when we choose to disobey. It doesn't mean that we can't obey.

So again, do you accept Deut 30:11-14, that keeping the law is easy, or do you think God is lying?
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
It doesn't mean that we can't obey.

So again, do you accept Deut 30:11-14, that keeping the law is easy, or do you think God is lying?
Observing stuff from the Law is easy, keeping it perfectly (as God would) is not.
There has to be an established Standard, or it's just arbitrary
and the Bible repeatedly points out God is perfect and we are not.

"As for God, His way is perfect,
the word of the LORD is proven" Ps 18

God predicting Israel's rebellion and failure doesn't mean He is ok with it.
He prophesied Israel's future faithfulness,
and the OP contents it's on Him to make it happen, because that is the only way it would ever happen.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Observing stuff from the Law is easy, keeping it perfectly (as God would) is not.
There has to be an established Standard, or it's just arbitrary
and the Bible repeatedly points out God is perfect and we are not.

"As for God, His way is perfect,
the word of the LORD is proven" Ps 18

God predicting Israel's rebellion and failure doesn't mean He is ok with it.
He prophesied Israel's future faithfulness,
and the OP contents it's on Him to make it happen, because that is the only way it would ever happen.
And yet nothing says God will keep the laws for us. That's a big hole in your arguments and in Jesus fulfilling all righteousness for you.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
And yet nothing says God will keep the laws for us. That's a big hole in your arguments and in Jesus fulfilling all righteousness for you.
I doubt Hillel, Gamaliel, Shammai etc. would deflect the way you do.
Nothing I've said implies God keeps it for you.
You have to be held accountable, or He can't justifiably curse you.

It would be more reasonable to argue that
if one wants to do good, God may assist them
and if one wants to do evil, they will find a way as it is their Nature.
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Even if there is an Author of evil, our own sins and Sin can be held against us.
If God does assist, that would not be something that He has to do, so it would be gracious doing on His part.

Is there any statement God is under some obligation to assist you to do right in the stipulations of the Law?
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
I doubt Hillel, Gamaliel, Shammai etc. would deflect the way you do.
I've answered.

Nothing I've said implies God keeps it for you.
Great. There's no reason then for Jesus to keep the law for us under the Christian agenda.

You have to be held accountable, or He can't justifiably curse you.
And blessed too. ;)

It would be more reasonable to argue that
if one wants to do good, God may assist them
and if one wants to do evil, they will find a way as it is their Nature.
Giving blessings, health, strength, prosperity, etc., assists us. I'm not arguing that.

But God doesn't force our love of Him, or obedience.

Again, do you have something concrete you're trying to accomplish here?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Even if there is an Author of evil, our own sins and Sin can be held against us.
If God does assist, that would not be something that He has to do, so it would be gracious doing on His part.

Is there any statement God is under some obligation to assist you to do right in the stipulations of the Law?
God is under no obligation for anything. He didn't have to create us, but He did.

But, once He enters a covenant, He's obligated to His promises, etc.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
God is under no obligation for anything. He didn't have to create us, but He did.

But, once He enters a covenant, He's obligated to His promises, etc.
You are obligated to Keep your end.
God keeping his end isn't a problem, so the problem in the Covenant keeping lies elsewhere. no?

so how come no one loves Him with all their Heart, Mind, Strength, etc?
and as no one does, what does He owe you under the Covenant?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You are obligated to Keep your end.
God keeping his end isn't a problem, so the problem in the Covenant keeping lies elsewhere. no?
Right, and the covenant still applies, so what does that mean?

so how come no one loves Him with all their Heart, Mind, Strength, etc?
Who says no one? It's like a marriage. The love increases over time.

and as no one does, what does He owe you under the Covenant?
Well, given that Israel was given the land, and returned, and my own personal blessings in my life, I'd say God fulfilled His promises so far.

So again, of what value are your questions?
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Perfection has never been the standard.
it is, or it has no Standard at all

Well, given that Israel was given the land, and returned, and my own personal blessings in my life, I'd say God fulfilled His promises so far.
the current gathering to the Land is in unbelief, not obedience
same as before

"Do not think in your heart, after the Lord your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the Lord has brought me in to possess this land’"
"Therefore understand that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people."
"You have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you."
Deut. 9
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
it is, or it has no Standard at all


the current gathering to the Land is in unbelief, not obedience
same as before

"Do not think in your heart, after the Lord your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the Lord has brought me in to possess this land’"
"Therefore understand that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people."
"You have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you."
Deut. 9
please don't reply to more than one post in the same reply.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
it is, or it has no Standard at all
The strive for perfection, yes. Even Jesus tried working on this.

There wouldn't means of atonement if only perfection was allowed. So much for your theory ;)

the current gathering to the Land is in unbelief, not obedience
same as before
You have no evidence to back that up unless you've polled every Jew in Israel. Have you?

"Do not think in your heart, after the Lord your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the Lord has brought me in to possess this land’"
"Therefore understand that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people."
"You have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you."
Deut. 9
Again, context is important for what you quote. The above refers to that specific generation.

So, do you have anything of worth to continue discussing?
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
There wouldn't means of atonement if only perfection was allowed.
Means of atonement under the Law was provided within the Law and required for transgression.
Perfection would still be the standard, otherwise any transgression wouldn't be transgression.
Then it was a waste of time him keeping the law?
It wouldn't be a waste of time for a Jew to do what was commanded of Jews.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Means of atonement under the Law was provided within the Law and required for transgression.
Yes, which shows perfection was the end state, walking with God. Incense, money, flour cakes, sacrifices, etc., were all means of atonement.

But nowhere, is human sacrifice used for atonement nor a commandment. So, under your argument, Jesus' blood is invalid.

Perfection would still be the standard, otherwise any transgression wouldn't be transgression.
See above. The standard is all of the law with its sacrifices, etc.

It wouldn't be a waste of time for a Jew to do what was commanded of Jews.
I never said it was. That's your problem. So Jesus grew in righteousness... rotfl...
 
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