Two Distinct Persons Within God / One Verse.

[101G]

Cool.



When Scripture makes an analogy, it can't be wrong to reference that same analogy: "YHWH says to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.'" Psalm 110:1. This is the most quoted verse in the NT.

God Bless

sit at the right hand .... means in POWER. there is ONLY one who sit on the THRONE, and that's GOD, the Lord Jesus, who is Now Glorified in heavenly flesh and bone. the Amalgamation of Spirit and a body, flesh and bone.

now note, he who sits is the LORD .... in Flesh, supportive scripture, Psalms 132:11 "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.".

now.... in concrete form, there is no one next to him either right or left. listen and Learn, Revelation 3:21 " To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." got it now? there is no one sitting on the left or right, physically, but IN, IN, IN. how do you know this 101G? John 14:20 " At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

101G

 

[DoctrinesofGraceBapt]

Cool.

When Scripture makes an analogy, it can't be wrong to reference that same analogy: "YHWH says to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.'" Psalm 110:1. This is the most quoted verse in the NT.

sit at the right hand .... means in POWER. there is ONLY one who sit on the THRONE, and that's GOD, the Lord Jesus, who is Now Glorified in heavenly flesh and bone. the Amalgamation of Spirit and a body, flesh and bone.

now note, he who sits is the LORD .... in Flesh, supportive scripture, Psalms 132:11 "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.".

So, who is "my Lord" who is ordered to sit at YHWH's right hand in Psalm 110:1? After all, "YHWH says to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.'" Psalm 110:1. Who is YHWH talking with?

now.... in concrete form, there is no one next to him either right or left. listen and Learn, Revelation 3:21 " To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." got it now? there is no one sitting on the left or right, physically, but IN, IN, IN. how do you know this 101G? John 14:20 " At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

You do realize your doctrine is only being justified in the narrative surrounding these verses you quote. Your doctrine isn't found in the passages you quote.

"And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped." Revelation 5:13-14. What's up with mentioning "him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb"?

God Bless

 

[101G]

“Person” refers to the center of consciousness and includes the idea of mind, will and desire. Just as I am a being with one center of self-consciousness, who I call “I”, God should be one being with one center of self-consciousness who identifies as “I”.

if this is true, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." is the FIRST and the Last here, is this two separate persons? yes, or no.

101G

 

[Andreas]

Two Distinct Persons Within God / One Verse.



Oneness: What do they believe?

• We acknowledge "Sola Scriptura" seriously.
• There is One God with no distinction of persons.
• Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the one true God manifested in the flesh. He is the One God incarnate. Jesus is the human personification of God.
• We believe in Father, Son and Holy Ghost but do not hold that these are three distinct persons,
• The OT establishes that there is One God without distinction of persons. (Isaiah 45)

Central to Oneness is the concept of the Oneness of God. Just like Christianity rises and falls on the Resurrection, Oneness rises and falls on the Oneness of God. We can logically conclude from the above that just as I am one being / one person, God is one being/ one person.

We need to define person.

“Person” refers to the center of consciousness and includes the idea of mind, will and desire. Just as I am a being with one center of self-consciousness, who I call “I”, God should be one being with one center of self-consciousness who identifies as “I”.

Since it the Oneness position that the OT establishes that there is One God without distinction of persons, we should not find any contradiction to this claim.

I submit the following.

Below is Isaiah 44:6 were two individuals are identified as YHWH, = YHWH the King of Israel and YHWH the Lord of Host, both claiming to be an “I”, both claiming to be the First and Last and both claiming singularity by addressing themselves as “Me”.

Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And His Redeemer, the Lord of host, :I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. {NKJV}

In the original language “Lord” is translated from YHWH therefore this verse reads. “Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel, and His Redeemer, YHWH, Lord of host, I am the First and I am the Last, Besides Me the is no God.

The suffix ‘his’ is found in the word redeemer “וְגֹאֲל֖וֹ” (in red] establishes a relationship between YHWH the King of Israel and YHWH Lord of Host.

We have two distinct individuals [suffix ‘his’ establishes], identifying themselves as YHWH, also identifying themselves as individuals {‘I’}, therefore each a center of self-consciousness. Here we have two centers of self-consciousness’ therefore two distinct persons within God claiming to be a singularity “Me”.



כה thus --- אמר he said -- יהוה: Yahweh -- מלך king of-- ישׂראל: Israel-- ו: and-- גאל redeemer

הוא his/him-- יהוה: Yahweh of-- צבא hosts-- אני I-- ראשׁון first-- ו: and-- אני I-- אחרון: last—

ו: and--- מן from--- בלעדי: without-- אני me-- אין does not exist-- אלהים: God



Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,

כה thus אמר he said יהוה: Yahweh מלך king of ישׂראל : Israel

And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:

ו: and הוא his/him גאל redeemer יהוה : Yahweh of-- צבא hosts


‘I am the First and I am the Last;

אני I-- ראשׁון first-- ו: and-- אני I-- אחרון: last—


Besides Me there is no God

בלעדי: without-- אני me-- אין does not exist-- אלהים : God

PHILIPPIANS 4:20 "To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

This is not a reference to two persons even though the word AND is used. So too with Isaiah 44:6. You are abusing grammar and reading comprehension.

 

[Towerwatchman]

PHILIPPIANS 4:20 "To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

This is not a reference to two persons even though the word AND is used. So too with Isaiah 44:6. You are abusing grammar and reading comprehension.

Does not read. “ONLY to our God and Father…”

Seems you lack any sense of reading comprehension.

 

[Andreas]

Does not read. “ONLY to our God and Father…”

Seems you lack any sense of reading comprehension.

Weak

 

[Towerwatchman]

Weak

Let me help you out.

1 jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, [The Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

There is no punctuation in the original language.

 

[Andreas]

Let me help you out.

1 jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, [The Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

There is no punctuation in the original language.

Are you confusing me with the Christ deity-deniers? I'm not. I exalt the Lord Jesus Christ above that which the doctrine of the Trinity does. He is the one true God, not the 2nd person in a supposed Trinitarian godhead.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Are you confusing me with the Christ deity-deniers? I'm not. I exalt the Lord Jesus Christ above that which the doctrine of the Trinity does. He is the one true God, not the 2nd person in a supposed Trinitarian godhead.

How does Jesus relate to the Father and HS?

 

[Andreas]

How does Jesus relate to the Father and HS?

Jesus is God manifested in the flesh. He is truly God and truly man.

God the Father is Spirit (John 4:24; Psalm 139; Romans 8). There is only one God the Father, who is over all and in you all (Ephesians 4:6). Holiness is his basic moral attribute, and Spirit is his essence or nature. Thus, the Holy Spirit describes God in action especially in his relationship with man. The Son of God is God manifested as a genuine man. The Lord Jesus Christ is God, and all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in him bodily. There is simply no need to bring in extra-Biblical revelation or philosophy to describe three persons in a supposed Godhead. God is He, Him and refers to Himself as I AM, and None beside me.

You ask specifically how Jesus relates to the Father and HS. Since Jesus is a real man, he related to God like other men do in all ways, except he never sinned. Jesus prayed, grew in wisdom, got hungry and tired because he was a real man. Had he not prayed, then we would question the genuineness of his humanity and such. As to his deity, He is the one true God, the Father, and thus the Holy Spirit is the same as the Spirit of Christ (1 John 5:20; Romans 8). "I - thou" communications between Father and Son are simply due to the genuineness of his humanity. That is not a minor point, because this is where the first Trinitarians began to go off the rails in empty philosophy (Colossians 2:8-9), and so this can't be emphasized and reemphasized enough.

If you harmonize all of scripture from Genesis to Revelation concerning the nature or God and Christ, this is really the only doctrine that is consistent in all points.

 

[101G]

Does not read. “ONLY to our God and Father…”

Seems you lack any sense of reading comprehension.

is not the Lord Jesus the "ONLY" one who has "ETERNAL LIFE?" scripture, 1 Timothy 6:13 "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;" 1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"
1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

and you do know what "ONLY" means .... right, "and no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively".

101G

 

[Towerwatchman]

is not the Lord Jesus the "ONLY" one who has "ETERNAL LIFE?" scripture, 1 Timothy 6:13 "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;" 1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"
1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

and you do know what "ONLY" means .... right, "and no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively".

101G

sorry, what is your point?

 

[Our Lord's God]

Two Distinct Persons Within God / One Verse.



Oneness: What do they believe?

• We acknowledge "Sola Scriptura" seriously.
• There is One God with no distinction of persons.
• Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the one true God manifested in the flesh. He is the One God incarnate. Jesus is the human personification of God.
• We believe in Father, Son and Holy Ghost but do not hold that these are three distinct persons,
• The OT establishes that there is One God without distinction of persons. (Isaiah 45)

Central to Oneness is the concept of the Oneness of God. Just like Christianity rises and falls on the Resurrection, Oneness rises and falls on the Oneness of God. We can logically conclude from the above that just as I am one being / one person, God is one being/ one person.

We need to define person.

“Person” refers to the center of consciousness and includes the idea of mind, will and desire. Just as I am a being with one center of self-consciousness, who I call “I”, God should be one being with one center of self-consciousness who identifies as “I”.

Since it the Oneness position that the OT establishes that there is One God without distinction of persons, we should not find any contradiction to this claim.

I submit the following.

Below is Isaiah 44:6 were two individuals are identified as YHWH, = YHWH the King of Israel and YHWH the Lord of Host, both claiming to be an “I”, both claiming to be the First and Last and both claiming singularity by addressing themselves as “Me”.

Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And His Redeemer, the Lord of host, :I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. {NKJV}

In the original language “Lord” is translated from YHWH therefore this verse reads. “Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel, and His Redeemer, YHWH, Lord of host, I am the First and I am the Last, Besides Me the is no God.

The suffix ‘his’ is found in the word redeemer “וְגֹאֲל֖וֹ” (in red] establishes a relationship between YHWH the King of Israel and YHWH Lord of Host.

We have two distinct individuals [suffix ‘his’ establishes], identifying themselves as YHWH, also identifying themselves as individuals {‘I’}, therefore each a center of self-consciousness. Here we have two centers of self-consciousness’ therefore two distinct persons within God claiming to be a singularity “Me”.



כה thus --- אמר he said -- יהוה: Yahweh -- מלך king of-- ישׂראל: Israel-- ו: and-- גאל redeemer

הוא his/him-- יהוה: Yahweh of-- צבא hosts-- אני I-- ראשׁון first-- ו: and-- אני I-- אחרון: last—

ו: and--- מן from--- בלעדי: without-- אני me-- אין does not exist-- אלהים: God



Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,

כה thus אמר he said יהוה: Yahweh מלך king of ישׂראל : Israel

And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:

ו: and הוא his/him גאל redeemer יהוה : Yahweh of-- צבא hosts


‘I am the First and I am the Last;

אני I-- ראשׁון first-- ו: and-- אני I-- אחרון: last—


Besides Me there is no God

בלעדי: without-- אני me-- אין does not exist-- אלהים : God

The context tells us beyond doubt that "His Redeemer" refers to Israel's redeemer, Jacob's redeemer portrayed as God's servant.

But that requires simple reading ability.

But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen.... Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his redeemer, the Lord of hosts... Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are My servant... For the Lord has redeemed Jacob
and in Israel He shows forth His glory. Isaiah 44

YHWH the King of Israel is Israel's redeemer. The Lord of Hosts is Israel's redeemer.

 

[Towerwatchman]

The context tells us beyond doubt that "His Redeemer" refers to Israel's redeemer, Jacob's redeemer portrayed as God's servant.

But that requires simple reading ability.

But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen.... Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his redeemer, the Lord of hosts... Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are My servant... For the Lord has redeemed Jacob
and in Israel He shows forth His glory. Isaiah 44

YHWH the King of Israel is Israel's redeemer. The Lord of Hosts is Israel's redeemer.

Wrong.
Why?
Because "Israel is part of the title "King of Israel" which modifies YHWH. 'His' possessive pronoun establishes a relationship between YHWH 'King of Israel' and YHWH 'Lord of Host'

Same as arguing the following

Thus says Biden 'president of the USA' and his VP 'Kamala Harris'...

Following your logic 'his' establishes a relationship between USA and Kamala Harris.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Wrong.
Why?
Because "Israel is part of the title "King of Israel" which modifies YHWH. 'His' possessive pronoun establishes a relationship between YHWH 'King of Israel' and YHWH 'Lord of Host'

Same as arguing the following

Thus says Biden 'president of the USA' and his VP 'Kamala Harris'...

Following your logic 'his' establishes a relationship between USA and Kamala Harris.

I'll bet these NIV scholars never even thought of that eh?

“This is what the Lord says - Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty" Isaiah 44:6

Or why don't you apply your "logic" to this verse:

Thus says the Lord the Holy One of Israel and his Maker Isaiah 45:11

God's Maker?

 

[Andreas]

Wrong.
Why?
Because "Israel is part of the title "King of Israel" which modifies YHWH. 'His' possessive pronoun establishes a relationship between YHWH 'King of Israel' and YHWH 'Lord of Host'

Same as arguing the following

Thus says Biden 'president of the USA' and his VP 'Kamala Harris'...

Following your logic 'his' establishes a relationship between USA and Kamala Harris.

You are fussing over grammar and getting it wrong.

 

[Andreas]

is not the Lord Jesus the "ONLY" one who has "ETERNAL LIFE?" scripture, 1 Timothy 6:13 "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;" 1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"
1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

and you do know what "ONLY" means .... right, "and no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively".

101G

Yes, how does Jesus "show"? Because he is the image of the invisible God, the manifestation of God, for in Him dwells and the fullness of the Godhead bodily and we are complete in Him.


There's no way we can be complete in a mere man. Think about it.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Yes, how does Jesus "show"? Because he is the image of the invisible God, the manifestation of God, for in Him dwells and the fullness of the Godhead bodily and we are complete in Him.

The Bible tells us HOW.

But you thought it would be appropriate to instead just make something up. Why? That's how lies are made.

 

[Towerwatchman]

I'll bet these NIV scholars never even thought of that eh?

“This is what the Lord says - Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty" Isaiah 44:6

Or why don't you apply your "logic" to this verse:

Thus says the Lord the Holy One of Israel and his Maker Isaiah 45:11

God's Maker?

Finally something, a bone with some meat on it. Yes, the grammar is similar, but the context is different and does not answer the main topic. The central theme is two separate individuals identified as YHWH in the same verse claiming singularity. Even if the pronominal suffix modifies 'redeemer' as possession of Israel it changes nothing, you still have the central theme to deal with. Also in 45:11, it is clear that the pronominal suffix modifies ‘maker’ as possession of Israel; why = because there is only one individual identified as YHWH in the verse.

BTW, the passage you posted as support against the Trinity, when interpreted in the context of the entire Bible supports the Trinity.
Is 45:11Thus says the Lord, The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: “Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons;
And concerning the work of My hands, you command Me. 12 I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens,

He 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, [Ho Theos =YHWH] is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God [Ho Theos =YHWH], Your God [Ho Theos =YHWH], has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” 10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

In Hebrews 1:8-9 The Father who identifies Himself as Ho Theos [equivalent to YHWH], identifies the Son as Ho Theos [equivalent to YHWH] and credits the Son as the sole cause of creation, using the same terms YHWH uses in Isa 45 when He [YHWH] states that He {YHWH} is the sole cause of creation.

Shot your other foot , did ya.

 

[Towerwatchman]

You are fussing over grammar and getting it wrong.

Really? I thought you knew better.
If grammar does not matter how do we communicate the truth effectively?