Two Distinct Persons Within God / One Verse.

Towerwatchman

Well-known member
You're taking the "AND" and turning it into something not intended by the grammar.
Explain how I am turning 'and' into something else?

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
כה thus אמר he said יהוה: Yahweh מלך king of ישׂראל : Israel

And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
ו: and הוא his/him גאל redeemer יהוה : Yahweh of-- צבא hosts

‘I am the First and I am the Last;
אני I-- ראשׁון first-- ו: and-- אני I-- אחרון: last—

Besides Me there is no God
בלעדי: without-- אני me-- אין does not exist-- אלהים : God
 

Andreas

Well-known member
Explain how I am turning 'and' into something else?

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
כה thus אמר he said יהוה: Yahweh מלך king of ישׂראל : Israel

And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
ו: and הוא his/him גאל redeemer יהוה : Yahweh of-- צבא hosts

‘I am the First and I am the Last;
אני I-- ראשׁון first-- ו: and-- אני I-- אחרון: last—

Besides Me there is no God
בלעדי: without-- אני me-- אין does not exist-- אלהים : God

There is only one "I" and "me" in that text. It is not introducing a second person, but rather telling us that the King of Israel is also the redeemer of Israel. If you have to squeeze a verse like this in the OT to show evidence for a Trinity, your evidence is weak. Trinitarian scholars have even said that there is really nothing in the OT to support a Trinity. I know some have tried but the scriptures are always ambiguous and reading a Trinity into them is a big stretch. This is one example. It doesn't say, "besides us there is no God". It doesn't say, "We are the first and the last"

Multiple persons in the Godhead requires plural pronouns to be used of the Godhead. That simply doesn't exist. It's always singular pronouns. Remember I'm Oneness, not unitarian.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Explain how I am turning 'and' into something else?

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
כה thus אמר he said יהוה: Yahweh מלך king of ישׂראל : Israel

And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
ו: and הוא his/him גאל redeemer יהוה : Yahweh of-- צבא hosts

‘I am the First and I am the Last;
אני I-- ראשׁון first-- ו: and-- אני I-- אחרון: last—

Besides Me there is no God
בלעדי: without-- אני me-- אין does not exist-- אלהים : God

You just need to learn how to read:

But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen. 2 Thus says the Lord who made you and formed you from the womb, who will help you. Do not fear, O Jacob My servant... 6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his redeemer the LORD of hosts.... 21 “Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are My servant. I have formed you, you are My servant. O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.22 “I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud and your sins like a heavy mist. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.” 23 Shout for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done it! Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it; For the LORD has redeemed Jacob and in Israel He shows forth His glory. 24 Thus says the Lord, your redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb...
Isaiah 44

For those who can actually read, it is absurdly obvious that "his redeemer" in verse 6 refers to Jacob's/Israel's redeemer.

But what will you choose? Your fantasies? Or the facts?
 

Towerwatchman

Well-known member
There is only one "I" and "me" in that text. It is not introducing a second person, but rather telling us that the King of Israel is also the redeemer of Israel. If you have to squeeze a verse like this in the OT to show evidence for a Trinity, your evidence is weak. Trinitarian scholars have even said that there is really nothing in the OT to support a Trinity. I know some have tried but the scriptures are always ambiguous and reading a Trinity into them is a big stretch. This is one example. It doesn't say, "besides us there is no God". It doesn't say, "We are the first and the last"

Multiple persons in the Godhead requires plural pronouns to be used of the Godhead. That simply doesn't exist. It's always singular pronouns. Remember I'm Oneness, not unitarian.
We have been down this road before. I have supplied a multitude of OT verses that support the Trinity. As for this verse what stands out is two individuals identified as YHWH claim to be one. Unity of plurality.
 

Towerwatchman

Well-known member
You just need to learn how to read:

But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen. 2 Thus says the Lord who made you and formed you from the womb, who will help you. Do not fear, O Jacob My servant... 6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his redeemer the LORD of hosts.... 21 “Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are My servant. I have formed you, you are My servant. O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.22 “I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud and your sins like a heavy mist. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.” 23 Shout for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done it! Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it; For the LORD has redeemed Jacob and in Israel He shows forth His glory. 24 Thus says the Lord, your redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb...
Isaiah 44

For those who can actually read, it is absurdly obvious that "his redeemer" in verse 6 refers to Jacob's/Israel's redeemer.

But what will you choose? Your fantasies? Or the facts?
:poop: :poop: 👍Your dishonesty is on par with your imagination. Anyone can twist scripture by butchering the text. You should be proud of yourself, you are in good company with Joseph Smith and Tate Russell to name a few.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
:poop: :poop: 👍Your dishonesty is on par with your imagination. Anyone can twist scripture by butchering the text. You should be proud of yourself, you are in good company with Joseph Smith and Tate Russell to name a few.

How is the following "butchering the text?" Or is that comment just your way of denying obvious facts? Hmmmm?

But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen. 2 Thus says the Lord who made you and formed you from the womb, who will help you. Do not fear, O Jacob My servant... 6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his redeemer the LORD of hosts.... 21 “Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are My servant. I have formed you, you are My servant. O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.22 “I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud and your sins like a heavy mist. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.” 23 Shout for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done it! Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it; For the LORD has redeemed Jacob and in Israel He shows forth His glory. 24 Thus says the Lord, your redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb...
Isaiah 44

For those who can actually read, it is absurdly obvious that "his redeemer" in verse 6 refers to Jacob's/Israel's redeemer.
 

Towerwatchman

Well-known member
How is the following "butchering the text?" Or is that comment just your way of denying obvious facts? Hmmmm?

But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen. 2 Thus says the Lord who made you and formed you from the womb, who will help you. Do not fear, O Jacob My servant... 6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his redeemer the LORD of hosts.... 21 “Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are My servant. I have formed you, you are My servant. O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.22 “I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud and your sins like a heavy mist. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.” 23 Shout for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done it! Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it; For the LORD has redeemed Jacob and in Israel He shows forth His glory. 24 Thus says the Lord, your redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb...
Isaiah 44

For those who can actually read, it is absurdly obvious that "his redeemer" in verse 6 refers to Jacob's/Israel's redeemer.
Fallacy of false analogy = just because the issues at hand are alike in trivial ways it does not make it relevant to the conclusion.
Plus butchering the text.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Fallacy of false analogy = just because the issues at hand are alike in trivial ways it does not make it relevant to the conclusion.
Plus butchering the text.

Empty words since you cannot refute the facts

This is what the Lord says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
NIV

And what happened there? Should they have consulted you first? Or were they just not so blind as you choose to be?
 
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Towerwatchman

Well-known member
Empty words since you cannot refute the facts

This is what the Lord says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
NIV

And what happened there? Should they have consulted you first? Or were they just not so blind as you choose to be?
What facts?
What matters is the text, especially in its original language. Now if you are able to support this translation that you pulled out of xx do so using the original language.

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
כה thus אמר he said יהוה: Yahweh מלך king of ישׂראל : Israel

And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
ו: and הוא his/him גאל redeemer יהוה : Yahweh of-- צבא hosts

‘I am the First and I am the Last;
אני I-- ראשׁון first-- ו: and-- אני I-- אחרון: last—

Besides Me there is no God
בלעדי: without-- אני me-- אין does not exist-- אלהים : God

The suffix ‘his’ is found in the word redeemer “וְגֹאֲל֖וֹ” (in red
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
What facts?
What matters is the text, especially in its original language. Now if you are able to support this translation that you pulled out of xx do so using the original language.

Those poor NIV translators didn't know what they were doing eh?

Maybe you should write the translation committee and straighten them out on the matter.

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
כה thus אמר he said יהוה: Yahweh מלך king of ישׂראל : Israel

And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
ו: and הוא his/him גאל redeemer יהוה : Yahweh of-- צבא hosts

‘I am the First and I am the Last;
אני I-- ראשׁון first-- ו: and-- אני I-- אחרון: last—

Besides Me there is no God
בלעדי: without-- אני me-- אין does not exist-- אלהים : God

The suffix ‘his’ is found in the word redeemer “וְגֹאֲל֖וֹ” (in red
 

Towerwatchman

Well-known member
Those poor NIV translators didn't know what they were doing eh?

Maybe you should write the translation committee and straighten them out on the matter.

Appeal to biased authority​

Appeal to biased authority occurs when someone who is truly knowledgeable about the topic under discussion makes a claim influenced by their own prejudice or bias, rather than their expertise.

I am arguing from the original language. You hide behind translators.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member

Appeal to biased authority​

Appeal to biased authority occurs when someone who is truly knowledgeable about the topic under discussion makes a claim influenced by their own prejudice or bias, rather than their expertise.

I don't have any bias at all toward the NIV. In fact, I really don't like the translation. Also, the NIV isn't the only translation which does likewise.

Now tell us why the NIV translaters did what they did at Isaiah 44:6. Do you have any idea whatsoever?

I am arguing from the original language.

The NIV translaters used the original language. They are also Trinitarians. It seems then that they are just more honest than you with the facts.

You hide behind translators.

Are you begging me to hide behind your translation instead?

The NIV translaters are scholars and they had a reason for doing what they did. Gee I wonder what that reason was.
You barely qualify as a hack and you expect me to accept your ridiculous translation that defies the context? I don't think so.
 

Truther

Well-known member
There are 2 persons...


For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


God inside Jesus
 
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