Two Questions: If you can lose your salvation, then...

Matt Slick

CARM President
Staff member
1) If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do TO lose it?
2) If you can lose your salvation, then what must do to NOT lose it?

I'm interested in direct answers, maybe even a list.

If you can't answer either question, then how do you know if you're saved?
 

zerinus

Active member
1) If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do TO lose it?
2) If you can lose your salvation, then what must do to NOT lose it?

I'm interested in direct answers, maybe even a list.
You are asking the wrong question. You can't "lose" your salvation if you don't already have it, and since the Bible says you don't have it in this life until you have "endured to the end," that question (either question) in this life does not arise.
If you can't answer either question, then how do you know if you're saved?
I know I have chosen the right path that leads to salvation, and I have the promised assurance that if I remain true to my convictions, that I will be assisted by the grace of God to persevere and endure to the end, and obtain salvation and eternal life in the kingdom of God in heaven.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are asking the wrong question. You can't "lose" your salvation if you don't already have it, and since the Bible says you don't have it in this life until you have "endured to the end," that question (either question) in this life does not arise.

I know I have chosen the right path that leads to salvation, and I have the promised assurance that if I remain true to my convictions, that I will be assisted by the grace of God to persevere and endure to the end, and obtain salvation and eternal life in the kingdom of God in heaven.
Wow your salvation depends on you !
 

Theophilos

New member
. . . if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15

Is salvation possible without forgiveness?
 

zerinus

Active member
. . . if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15

Is salvation possible without forgiveness?
Good question. Apparently not! But don't tell the Calvinists that! :oops:
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
. . . if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15

Is salvation possible without forgiveness?
. . . if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15

Is salvation possible without forgiveness?
Well those Christ died for freely have forgiveness of sins by Grace, doesn't matter if they have forgiven anyone or not. Eph 1:7
 

Theophilos

New member
Well those Christ died for freely have forgiveness of sins by Grace, doesn't matter if they have forgiven anyone or not. Eph 1:7
Yes, Christ gives us the gift of forgiveness, but we are free to reject it by our actions.

Consider the ending to the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant:

Then his lord called him in, and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt, because you begged me. Shouldn't you also have had mercy on your fellow servant, even as I had mercy on you?' His lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors, until he should pay all that was due to him. So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don't each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds. Matthew 18:32-35

We will all have to stand before the fearsome judgment seat of Christ:

But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. Romans 14:10

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Judgment-Seat
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yes, Christ gives us the gift of forgiveness, but we are free to reject it by our actions.

Consider the ending to the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant:

Then his lord called him in, and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt, because you begged me. Shouldn't you also have had mercy on your fellow servant, even as I had mercy on you?' His lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors, until he should pay all that was due to him. So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don't each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds. Matthew 18:32-35

We will all have to stand before the fearsome judgment seat of Christ:

But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. Romans 14:10

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Judgment-Seat
lol, that sounds crazy, but thats your relgion. In mine you have forgiveness with God through Jesus Christ while you are enemies hating God Rom 5:10
 
1) If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do TO lose it?
2) If you can lose your salvation, then what must do to NOT lose it?

I'm interested in direct answers, maybe even a list.

If you can't answer either question, then how do you know if you're saved?

1) It's impossible to lose it.
2) It's not possible to lose it.

I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

However, fake Christians can also state this. Easy.

3) How do we know we are saved?

Be charitable, helping others, be a good boy and good girl, study the Bible, treat others well, loving your neighbors as yourself, attending Church services and etc. Bearing the fruits of the spirit, etc. However, fake Christians can also do this. Minus the bible and the church, atheists, and other people of different faiths can also display the fruits of the spirit. Easy. Some people are naturally helpful, courteous, and polite. They are good Samaritans on earth and not necessarily of the Christian faith.

When I was in Osaka, Japan, I got lost at the train station. An old man came up to me sensing that I was lost and offered help. He spoke good English. He was Shinto. Another time, a Muslim offered to pay for my bus fare when I didn't have any change. The bus driver refused to let me in. All I had in my wallet was large bills.

Of course, I know works cannot save you. But, fake Christians can also state this. Easy. Fake Christians say they believe in Christ and be saved. Easy.

How do we know for certain that we are really saved? We wait for the judgment. If you're already in the end-times, if you don't take the mark and as a result suffer persecution and death, you're as real as the sun in the sky. You passed with flying colors.

Just being realistic.
 

zerinus

Active member
1) It's impossible to lose it.
2) It's not possible to lose it.

I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

However, fake Christians can also state this. Easy.

3) How do we know we are saved?
A "true Christian," however, might argue like this:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16)
"he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matt. 10:22)
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38)
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations" (Luke 24:47)
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22)
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will . . ." (Matt. 7:21)
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34-35)


Your theology is selective. It is extremely selective. It is not based on what the whole of the Bible teaches, but on what a small fraction of the Bible teaches. A theology that is so highly selective is bound to be flawed, and cannot be teaching sound biblical doctrine.
 
Last edited:

Septextura

Active member
Matt asked for a laundry list of ideas/doctrines against OSAS. Best to not reply and start debates, as we have the other threads for this purpose.

Just let the heresy roll.
 

Mike McK

Active member
1) If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do TO lose it?
2) If you can lose your salvation, then what must do to NOT lose it?

I'm interested in direct answers, maybe even a list.

If you can't answer either question, then how do you know if you're saved?
Here's something I posted in the Catholic forums on the old CARM boards:

Since our salvation was not initiated by us, was not bought by us, and is not held by us, how can it be ours to lose?

Rather than ask if man can lose his salvation, you should be asking if Christ is able to lose any the Father has given Him or is unable to keep us from falling.

You seem to misunderstand the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.

You talk about the Biblical doctrine of eternal security as if it's something we earn after salvation by proving ourselves worthy.

That's not the case at all. We're not saved by our own righteousness, but by Christ's righteousness, and our salvation is not kept by our faithfulness, but by Christ's faithfulness and ability to keep that which the Father has given Him.

If one is born again, then his salvation is secure in Christ's hands.

I would encourage you to think long and hard about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. That means that it would only take one sin to fall away.

To deny the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, you must believe that, if one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, as well. Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We can't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We can't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did under the law!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

But, back to your question, there are a host of verses that support the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.

Let's start with the most obvious:

John 6:35-40 says 35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

So, here we have three promises:

a) That Jesus will not lose those the Father has given Him.

b) That Jesus will not cast out any who come to Him

That precludes both the sinner losing his salvation and Jesus taking his salvation away. So what means is left to lose salvation?

c) That God has already promised they would be raised on the last day.

Does God now break His promises?

And that's only the beginning. There is plenty of evidence for the Biblical doctrine of eternal security after that. For instance...

Romans 8:29-30 says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

Jude 24 says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?


Colossians 3:1-4 says that if we have been saved, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philippians 1:6 says that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise to finish the good work He began in you, if you can lose your salvation?

1 Peter 1:23 tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptible seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptible and that promise is not true.

Like Colossians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation". And if we're sons of God, when has God ever disowned a son?

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works? Furthermore, why isn't keeping our salvation a work?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?

It's been my experience that where you find a denial of the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security, just scratch the surface and you'll find a belief in works-righteousness.

Again, I ask, is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?
 
Last edited:

Mike McK

Active member
A "true Christian," however, might argue like this:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16)
"he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matt. 10:22)
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38)
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations" (Luke 24:47)
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22)
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will . . ." (Matt. 7:21)
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34-35)

Your theology is selective.
Seriously? You just purposely took eight Bible verses out of context, and now you're accusing somebody else of being "selective"?
 

Matt Slick

CARM President
Staff member
Good question. Apparently not! But don't tell the Calvinists that! :oops:

Have you forgiven EVERY trespass against you?

Have you?

Are there some trespasses against you that you've forgotten?

So, are you NOT saved WHILE you've not forgiven someone, but then you get forgiven and saved once YOU forgive someone?

Can you answer.
 

zerinus

Active member
Seriously? You just purposely took eight Bible verses out of context, and now you're accusing somebody else of being "selective"?
Those verses are a demo of how Calvinistic theology overlooks and ignores the great proportion of the Bible teaching in arriving at its soteriology.
 
Top