zerinus
Well-known member
Of course it depends on Christ's work, but you have the option of accepting or rejecting his offer.Wow... an here I thought my salvation deepened on Christ's work, not mine.
Of course it depends on Christ's work, but you have the option of accepting or rejecting his offer.Wow... an here I thought my salvation deepened on Christ's work, not mine.
I think you are making it more complicated than Jesus meant it to be. But his meaning is clear. We need to be willing to forgive others in order to obtain the forgiveness that we expect from God. If I am not remembering a "trespass" against me, then that means that I am not holding a grudge against that person either. I think what Jesus meant is that we shouldn't be holding grudges, not that we should forgive any hypothetical wrong in the universe that may have been committed against us, which we may not even be aware of.Have you forgiven EVERY trespass against you?
Have you?
Are there some trespasses against you that you've forgotten?
So, are you NOT saved WHILE you've not forgiven someone, but then you get forgiven and saved once YOU forgive someone?
Can you answer.
1) If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do TO lose it?
2) If you can lose your salvation, then what must do to NOT lose it?
I'm interested in direct answers, maybe even a list.
If you can't answer either question, then how do you know if you're saved?
I think that a relevant question from a Calvinist perspective is whether a person who intentionally holds onto grudges is really a saved Christian to begin with.Good question. Apparently not! But don't tell the Calvinists that!![]()
Another good point and good question. What is particularly interesting about that prayer is that it was not meant to be a once for all prayer, but a continual prayer that a Christian were to offer throughout his life. That undermines further the "once saved, always saved" doctrine. What if a true believer and convert neglected that prayer (or the underlying message embedded in it) at some point later in his life. Suppose a genuine convert 20 years down the line began hating someone who had done them wrong, and could not bring himself to forgive. Is his "salvation" still guaranteed? Is he still "saved"? I wonder what answer Matt Slick has to give to that question.I think that a relevant question from a Calvinist perspective is whether a person who intentionally holds onto grudges is really a saved Christian to begin with.
In the Lord's Prayer, Jesus says that we should ask God to "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." (Mat 6:12) Why did Christ tell his adisciples to include this petition in the prayer?
No, my salvation depends on Christ, that He saved me and keeps those that are His. They shall never perish.Yes, and so does yours.
The mistake you are making is that you assume those two concepts are contradictory, when they are not. The offer Christ's redemption to man, and man's acceptance or rejection of it are not contradictory.No, my salvation depends on Christ, that He saved me and keeps those that are His. They shall never perish.
The mistake you are making is that you assume those two concepts are contradictory, when they are not. The offer Christ's redemption to man, and man's acceptance or rejection of it are not contradictory.
i don't think you know the 1st thing about the cost of discipleship and what it means to follow Jesus. See Luke 14 and John below.The mistake you are making is that you assume those two concepts are contradictory, when they are not. The offer Christ's redemption to man, and man's acceptance or rejection of it are not contradictory.
I assume you are referring to his conversion story. I think you are making some incorrect assumptions. Firstly, the fact that had a miraculous conversion does not mean that he had no choice in accepting or rejecting the gospel. To Timothy he writes:Tell that to Saul.
Redemption isnt offered ! Men who Christ died for are actually redeemed, not offered it Gal 3:13The mistake you are making is that you assume those two concepts are contradictory, when they are not. The offer Christ's redemption to man, and man's acceptance or rejection of it are not contradictory.
You are wrong, and no further comment need be added.Redemption isnt offered ! Men who Christ died for are actually redeemed, not offered it Gal 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
If Christ died for one that one is redeemed from the curse of the law, not offered to be redeemed. Thats ridiculous !
Lol, I know you dont want to make no further comment ! Gal 3 13You are wrong, and no further comment need be added.
Wrong... that is what the Arminians do....Those verses are a demo of how Calvinistic theology overlooks and ignores the great proportion of the Bible teaching in arriving at its soteriology.
God CHANGED his heart....and God keeps those that are His.I assume you are referring to his conversion story. I think you are making some incorrect assumptions. Firstly, the fact that had a miraculous conversion does not mean that he had no choice in accepting or rejecting the gospel. To Timothy he writes:
1 Timothy 1:
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry—
13 I, who was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and injurious. But I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;
God selected Paul because he knew his heart, that he was acting in ignorance, and that once the truth had been revealed to him, that he would remain faithful. He also says this:
1 Corinthians 9:
27 But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Paul was smart enough to know that he still needed to remain faithful, if he wanted to remain right with God, and not lose his salvation in the end; and therefore acted accordingly.
It's good to be Redeemed So good in fact I'm going to break out in song plug your ears.Redemption isnt offered ! Men who Christ died for are actually redeemed, not offered it Gal 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
If Christ died for one that one is redeemed from the curse of the law, not offered to be redeemed. Thats ridiculous !
God gave Paul a powerful divine witness, knowing that once he was convicted of the truth he would remain faithful, and he did, like himself says:God CHANGED his heart....and God keeps those that are His.
God has granted all men the freedom and ability to choose the right thing to do or go the wrong way, and Paul was no different:If your salvation was up to you, no one would be saved.
God made him faithfulGod gave Paul a powerful divine witness, knowing that once he was convicted of the truth he would remain faithful, and he did, like himself says:
1 Timothy 1:
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry—
13 I, who was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and injurious. But I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;
God has granted all men the freedom and ability to choose the right thing to do or go the wrong way, and Paul was no different:
1 Corinthians 9:
27 But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
He knew that he needed to be vigilant in order to not lose his salvation, and he acted accordingly, as himself says.
That doesn’t negate the fact that God changed his heart.God gave Paul a powerful divine witness, knowing that once he was convicted of the truth he would remain faithful, and he did, like himself says:
1 Timothy 1:
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry—
13 I, who was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and injurious. But I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;
God has granted all men the freedom and ability to choose the right thing to do or go the wrong way, and Paul was no different:
1 Corinthians 9:
27 But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
He knew that he needed to be vigilant in order to not lose his salvation, and he acted accordingly, as himself says.
I can't say that I know much about Arminianism, so I can't confirm or deny. I know more about Calvinism because I have debated with them online, and watched their debates with others. Calvinism also has the advantage of having a clearcut and unambiguous theology. It may be all wrong (and it is), but it doesn’t leave you in any doubt about what it is. So I can comment on Calvinism with more confidence than Arminianism. Both I am sure have their errors, and Calvinism a lot more.Wrong... that is what the Arminians do....
LOL! What is wrong with typing text? At least you have more time to get your thoughts together, and collect the resources you need, and take the time to think it through and express it in a clear and concise manner.but hey... you guys don't care about a live discussion to go over these things...