Two Questions: If you can lose your salvation, then...

[zerinus]

Wow... an here I thought my salvation deepened on Christ's work, not mine.

Of course it depends on Christ's work, but you have the option of accepting or rejecting his offer.

 

[zerinus]

Have you forgiven EVERY trespass against you?

Have you?

Are there some trespasses against you that you've forgotten?

So, are you NOT saved WHILE you've not forgiven someone, but then you get forgiven and saved once YOU forgive someone?

Can you answer.

I think you are making it more complicated than Jesus meant it to be. But his meaning is clear. We need to be willing to forgive others in order to obtain the forgiveness that we expect from God. If I am not remembering a "trespass" against me, then that means that I am not holding a grudge against that person either. I think what Jesus meant is that we shouldn't be holding grudges, not that we should forgive any hypothetical wrong in the universe that may have been committed against us, which we may not even be aware of.

 

[Redeemed]

1) If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do TO lose it?
2) If you can lose your salvation, then what must do to NOT lose it?

I'm interested in direct answers, maybe even a list.

If you can't answer either question, then how do you know if you're saved?

I'm going with Radioactives answer:

1) It's impossible to lose it.
2) It's not possible to lose it.

If salvation can be lost, then people we witness to should not be given a false sense of security. Could you imagine trying to pull that off. It would be like telling them "well you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior...your saved but I don't know how long you'll remain that way". I just can't see that working.

But since our salvation is secure there's no point getting all bent out of shape over a nonexistent possibility. Since salvation is truly by grace, I think there can be only one possible resolution to the issue. And I look to the word of God for that.​

• Acts 15:11 “No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”​
• Romans 3:24 “and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus”.​
• Romans 4:16 “Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.”​
• Romans 11:5-6 “So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.”​
• Galatians 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”​
• Ephesians 2:5-6 “made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,”​
• 2 Timothy 1:9-10 “He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”​
• Hebrews 6:13-20 “When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.” 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised. 16People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”​
• 1 Peter 1:3-6 “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.”​
• 1 John 2:25 “And this is what he promised us—eternal life.”​
• 1 John 5:9-13 “We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.​
  
  
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“The truth of eternal security is inherent in the nature of salvation itself.” Lewis Sperry Chafer ​

 

[Theophilos]

Good question. Apparently not! But don't tell the Calvinists that!

I think that a relevant question from a Calvinist perspective is whether a person who intentionally holds onto grudges is really a saved Christian to begin with.

In the Lord's Prayer, Jesus says that we should ask God to "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." (Mat 6:12) Why did Christ tell his disciples to include this petition in the prayer?

 

[zerinus]

I think that a relevant question from a Calvinist perspective is whether a person who intentionally holds onto grudges is really a saved Christian to begin with.

In the Lord's Prayer, Jesus says that we should ask God to "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." (Mat 6:12) Why did Christ tell his adisciples to include this petition in the prayer?

Another good point and good question. What is particularly interesting about that prayer is that it was not meant to be a once for all prayer, but a continual prayer that a Christian were to offer throughout his life. That undermines further the "once saved, always saved" doctrine. What if a true believer and convert neglected that prayer (or the underlying message embedded in it) at some point later in his life. Suppose a genuine convert 20 years down the line began hating someone who had done them wrong, and could not bring himself to forgive. Is his "salvation" still guaranteed? Is he still "saved"? I wonder what answer Matt Slick has to give to that question.

 

[4Him]

Yes, and so does yours.

No, my salvation depends on Christ, that He saved me and keeps those that are His. They shall never perish.

 

[zerinus]

No, my salvation depends on Christ, that He saved me and keeps those that are His. They shall never perish.

The mistake you are making is that you assume those two concepts are contradictory, when they are not. The offer Christ's redemption to man, and man's acceptance or rejection of it are not contradictory.

 

[4Him]

The mistake you are making is that you assume those two concepts are contradictory, when they are not. The offer Christ's redemption to man, and man's acceptance or rejection of it are not contradictory.

Tell that to Saul.

 

[Chalcedon]

The mistake you are making is that you assume those two concepts are contradictory, when they are not. The offer Christ's redemption to man, and man's acceptance or rejection of it are not contradictory.

i don't think you know the 1st thing about the cost of discipleship and what it means to follow Jesus. See Luke 14 and John below.

John 6:60-66
On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

 

[zerinus]

Tell that to Saul.

I assume you are referring to his conversion story. I think you are making some incorrect assumptions. Firstly, the fact that had a miraculous conversion does not mean that he had no choice in accepting or rejecting the gospel. To Timothy he writes:

1 Timothy 1:

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry—
13 I, who was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and injurious. But I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;

God selected Paul because he knew his heart, that he was acting in ignorance, and that once the truth had been revealed to him, that he would remain faithful. He also says this:

1 Corinthians 9:

27 But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul was smart enough to know that he still needed to remain faithful, if he wanted to remain right with God, and not lose his salvation in the end; and therefore acted accordingly.

 

[brightfame52]

The mistake you are making is that you assume those two concepts are contradictory, when they are not. The offer Christ's redemption to man, and man's acceptance or rejection of it are not contradictory.

Redemption isnt offered ! Men who Christ died for are actually redeemed, not offered it Gal 3:13

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

If Christ died for one that one is redeemed from the curse of the law, not offered to be redeemed. Thats ridiculous !

 

[zerinus]

Redemption isnt offered ! Men who Christ died for are actually redeemed, not offered it Gal 3:13

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

If Christ died for one that one is redeemed from the curse of the law, not offered to be redeemed. Thats ridiculous !

You are wrong, and no further comment need be added.

 

[brightfame52]

You are wrong, and no further comment need be added.

Lol, I know you dont want to make no further comment ! Gal 3 13

 

[Matt Slick]

Those verses are a demo of how Calvinistic theology overlooks and ignores the great proportion of the Bible teaching in arriving at its soteriology.

Wrong... that is what the Arminians do....

but hey... you guys don't care about a live discussion to go over these things...

 

[4Him]

I assume you are referring to his conversion story. I think you are making some incorrect assumptions. Firstly, the fact that had a miraculous conversion does not mean that he had no choice in accepting or rejecting the gospel. To Timothy he writes:

1 Timothy 1:

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry—
13 I, who was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and injurious. But I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;

God selected Paul because he knew his heart, that he was acting in ignorance, and that once the truth had been revealed to him, that he would remain faithful. He also says this:

1 Corinthians 9:

27 But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul was smart enough to know that he still needed to remain faithful, if he wanted to remain right with God, and not lose his salvation in the end; and therefore acted accordingly.

God CHANGED his heart....and God keeps those that are His.
If your salvation was up to you, no one would be saved.

 

[Redeemed]

Redemption isnt offered ! Men who Christ died for are actually redeemed, not offered it Gal 3:13

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

If Christ died for one that one is redeemed from the curse of the law, not offered to be redeemed. Thats ridiculous !

It's good to be Redeemed So good in fact I'm going to break out in song plug your ears.

I'm so glad Jesus set me free I'm so glad Jesus set me free I'm so glad did Jesus set me free singing glory hallelujah Jesus set me free. I used to be a lurker but Jesus set me free, I used to be a lurker but Jesus set me free, I used to be a lurker but Jesus set me free, singing glory hallelujah Jesus set me free. Free free free Jesus set me free.

 

[zerinus]

God CHANGED his heart....and God keeps those that are His.

God gave Paul a powerful divine witness, knowing that once he was convicted of the truth he would remain faithful, and he did, like himself says:

1 Timothy 1:

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry—
13 I, who was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and injurious. But I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;

If your salvation was up to you, no one would be saved.

God has granted all men the freedom and ability to choose the right thing to do or go the wrong way, and Paul was no different:

1 Corinthians 9:

27 But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

He knew that he needed to be vigilant in order to not lose his salvation, and he acted accordingly, as himself says.

 

[brightfame52]

God gave Paul a powerful divine witness, knowing that once he was convicted of the truth he would remain faithful, and he did, like himself says:

1 Timothy 1:

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry—
13 I, who was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and injurious. But I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;

God has granted all men the freedom and ability to choose the right thing to do or go the wrong way, and Paul was no different:

1 Corinthians 9:

27 But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

He knew that he needed to be vigilant in order to not lose his salvation, and he acted accordingly, as himself says.

God made him faithful

 

[4Him]

God gave Paul a powerful divine witness, knowing that once he was convicted of the truth he would remain faithful, and he did, like himself says:

1 Timothy 1:

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry—
13 I, who was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and injurious. But I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;

That doesn’t negate the fact that God changed his heart.

God has granted all men the freedom and ability to choose the right thing to do or go the wrong way, and Paul was no different:

1 Corinthians 9:

27 But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

He knew that he needed to be vigilant in order to not lose his salvation, and he acted accordingly, as himself says.

Paul knew he couldn’t lose his salvation.

Castaway/disqualified for what? NOT salvation....we don’t “qualify” for salvation, so that isn’t the context.
He will also never CAST out those that come to Him.
See my signature. His sheep shall never perish. NEVER doesn’t mean sometimes. You apparently think you are more powerful than the One that KEEPS those that belong to Him.

 

[zerinus]

Wrong... that is what the Arminians do....

I can't say that I know much about Arminianism, so I can't confirm or deny. I know more about Calvinism because I have debated with them online, and watched their debates with others. Calvinism also has the advantage of having a clearcut and unambiguous theology. It may be all wrong (and it is), but it doesn’t leave you in any doubt about what it is. So I can comment on Calvinism with more confidence than Arminianism. Both I am sure have their errors, and Calvinism a lot more.

but hey... you guys don't care about a live discussion to go over these things...

LOL! What is wrong with typing text? At least you have more time to get your thoughts together, and collect the resources you need, and take the time to think it through and express it in a clear and concise manner.