Two Questions: If you can lose your salvation, then...

zerinus

Well-known member
God made him faithful
I prefer to go by what he says, rather than what you say. According to his own words, he was already faithful, but ignorant, so he directed his zeal and faithfulness in the wrong channel. Once God took the blinders off him, and opened his eyes to see the truth, he was able to direct his enthusiasm and efforts in the right way.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
See my previous post.
My answer will remain the same.
That is exactly what "castaway" means in that context. It means to lose his salvation.
No it doesn’t. We don’t “qualify” for salvation, so you can’t be “disqualified” from it.

He will by no means cast out any that come to Him. His sheep shall never perish.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
My answer will remain the same.
Then I have nothing more to add.
No it doesn’t.
Then we have to agree to disagree. To become a "castaway" in that context can have only one possible meaning, which is to lose his salvation, or become reprobate. There is no chance that it could have any other meaning.
We don’t “qualify” for salvation, so you can’t be “disqualified” from it.

He will by no means cast out any that come to Him. His sheep shall never perish.
What I observe here is that you are trying to read your theology into the Bible, rather than obtain it from the Bible. You have already predetermined what your theology will be, and nothing is going to change it; and if the Bible says something different, you change the Bible to make it conform with your theology, rather change your theology to make it agree with the Bible.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
VThen I have nothing more to add.

Then we have to agree to disagree. To become a "castaway" in that context can have only one possible meaning, which is to lose his salvation, or become reprobate. There is no chance that it could have any other meaning.

You would be wrong.
What I observe here is that you are trying to read your theology into the Bible, rather than obtain it from the Bible. You have already predetermined what your theology will be, and nothing is going to change it; and if the Bible says something different, you change the Bible to make it conform with your theology, rather change your theology to make it agree with the Bible.
Ive provided scripture to support everything I’ve said.
You can’t be disqualified from something you don’t need to qualify for.

He will by no means cast out those that come to Him.
We are kept by the power of God.
His sheep shall never perish.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Unless they decide go away by themselves.

But not against their will.

Unless they no longer want to be his sheep.
Too late to edit the text, so here is some scripture support for the above:

Hebrews 3:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.


These verses are saying what Paul was saying about himself in 1 Cor. 9:27. It is possible to fall away after one has received the gospel and be damned. Nobody's salvation is automatically and unconditionally guaranteed. "Once saved, always saved" is not biblical.
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
Another good scripture reference:

Luke 9:

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?


To be "cast away" in that context means to be damned, or lose one's salvation. These quotes all come from the KJV, so they are verbally consistent.
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
I prefer to go by what he says, rather than what you say. According to his own words, he was already faithful, but ignorant, so he directed his zeal and faithfulness in the wrong channel. Once God took the blinders off him, and opened his eyes to see the truth, he was able to direct his enthusiasm and efforts in the right way.
Paul and I are saying the same thing. God counted him faithful meaning made him faithful. 1 Cor 15 10

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Paul and I are saying the same thing. God counted him faithful meaning made him faithful.
Wrong. God opened his eyes to the truth, and he chose to be faithful.
1 Cor 15 10

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
He is humble, and wants to give all the glory to God, which is the right way; but it does not mean that he had no choice in the matter, whether to follow God or not. He chose to remain faithful because he had the choice, not because God had made him to.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Unless they decide go away by themselves.

God keeps those that are His. The Good Shepherd will leave the 99 to go after even one of His sheep that wander and bring them back safely to the fold.
But not against their will.

See above.
Unless they no longer want to be his sheep.

His sheep shall never perish. NEVER.

You may want to ask yourself why we are likened to sheep and why we NEED a shepherd.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Too late to edit the text, so here is some scripture support for the above:

Hebrews 3:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Seems you missed "an evil heart of unbelief"
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

God keeps those that are His. We are steadfast by His grace.
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

These verses are saying what Paul was saying about himself in 1 Cor. 9:27. It is possible to fall away after one has received the gospel and be damned. Nobody's salvation is automatically and unconditionally guaranteed. "Once saved, always saved" is not biblical.

His sheep shall NEVER PERISH. Either Jesus is wrong are you are.....I'm guessing it's not Jesus.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Wrong. God opened his eyes to the truth, and he chose to be faithful.

God CHOSE him.
He is humble, and wants to give all the glory to God, which is the right way; but it does not mean that he had no choice in the matter, whether to follow God or not. He chose to remain faithful because he had the choice, not because God had made him to.

God CHOSE him, changed his heart and made him a new creation in Christ. His sheep FOLLOW Him.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Another good scripture reference:

Luke 9:

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?


To be "cast away" in that context means to be damned, or lose one's salvation. These quotes all come from the KJV, so they are verbally consistent.

A little context....

Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross [b]daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

This verse has nothing at all to do with a believer being lost and everything to do with anyone ashamed of Him and His words.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Wrong. God opened his eyes to the truth, and he chose to be faithful.

He is humble, and wants to give all the glory to God, which is the right way; but it does not mean that he had no choice in the matter, whether to follow God or not. He chose to remain faithful because he had the choice, not because God had made him to.
No I'm right. God enabled him by Grace and counted him faithful.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
A little context....

Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross [b]daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

This verse has nothing at all to do with a believer being lost and everything to do with anyone ashamed of Him and His words.
Thanks for the discussion. I don't think we will ever be able to agree, but I appreciate the conversation we have had.
 

civic

Well-known member
Unless they decide go away by themselves.
God saves us and keeps us saved.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Philippians 1:6-
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

1 Corinthians 1:8
He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father

Ephesians 2:4:5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,

hope this helps !!!

 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks for the discussion. I don't think we will ever be able to agree, but I appreciate the conversation we have had.

You're welcome.....but nothing to say regarding the actual context of the verse you quoted that doesn't remotely mean what you are reading into it? Interesting....
 

zerinus

Well-known member
You're welcome.....but nothing to say regarding the actual context of the verse you quoted that doesn't remotely mean what you are reading into it? Interesting....
Thanks. I stand by my interpretation of those verses. But I think that we have a fundamental disagreement, so it would be pointless to continue.
 
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