Two Questions: If you can lose your salvation, then...

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks. I stand by my interpretation of those verses. But I think that we have a fundamental disagreement, so it would be pointless to continue.

Why is it pointless?
I'd like to understand how you came to the conclusion that the verse you posted is speaking of believers that fell away when the text doesn't even imply it. I even highlighted for you the context....Jesus is speaking of those who gain worldly possessions BUT deny Him...not believers who later d
It doesn't even hint that He is speaking of believers that fall away, so tell us how you came to interpret that verse the way you do.

How do you square you belief with this?

1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 1
To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ: 2 May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Why is it pointless?
I'd like to understand how you came to the conclusion that the verse you posted is speaking of believers that fell away when the text doesn't even imply it. I even highlighted for you the context....Jesus is speaking of those who gain worldly possessions BUT deny Him...not believers who later d
It doesn't even hint that He is speaking of believers that fall away, so tell us how you came to interpret that verse the way you do.

How do you square you belief with this?

1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 1
To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ: 2 May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ
I qualify those with verses such as these:

Hebrews 3:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.


Which you understand very differently from the way I do. These of course are not the only ones. There are others which I have quoted and discussed on the forum before.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
I qualify those with verses such as these:

Hebrews 3:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Believers do not have an evil heart of unbelief, so this is not speaking of those born from above.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

What is our confidence in? Ourselves or Christ, who KEEPS THOSE THAT ARE HIS....

1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 1
To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ: 2 May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

27 My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.


They will NEVER PERISH....Is Jesus wrong? According to your belief, He is.


ou mé: anymore, at all, neither, never
Original Word: οὐ
Transliteration: ou mé
Phonetic Spelling: (oo may)
Definition: anymore, at all, neither, never
HELPS Word-studies
3364 ou mḗ (from 3756 /ou, " not a fact" and 3361 /mḗ, "not a possibility") – a double negative which emphatically conveys, "not a fact . . . not even a possibility!" – literally, "no, no!"

[In English, a double negative has a positive meaning. In Greek, a double negative is extra-emphatic, expressing very dramatic, forceful negation.]

IT's not even a possibility that His sheep can perish....

Why do you insist they can?

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Which you understand very differently from the way I do. These of course are not the only ones. There are others which I have quoted and discussed on the forum before.

Well, that isn't qualifying them, it's pitting scripture against scripture if you ignore the context....

The context of those verses is UNBELIEF....

The Danger of Unbelief​

12 Take care, brothers and sisters, that there will not be in any one of you an evil, UNBELIEVING HEART that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another every day, as long as it is still called “today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we keep the beginning of our commitment firm until the end, 15 while it is said,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nothing to add to what I had previously said.
Okay ! Paul plainly gives credit to Gods Grace in being what he is, to include faithful 1 Cor 15:10 You give credit to Paul, Paul and I give credit to Gods grace. Thats all i have to say about it.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Believers do not have an evil heart of unbelief, so this is not speaking of those born from above.
You are responding to this verse in Hebrews:

Hebrews 3:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


He is addressing believers, true Christians, and warning them against developing an "evil heart of unbelief," in departing from the living God where they are already at. You cannot depart from a place where you are not already in. You are putting a completely wrong spin on the verse in order to read your false theology into it, instead of obtaining your theology from it. And that applies to the rest of your comments on those verses, therefore there is no need to discuss the rest.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
You are responding to this verse in Hebrews:

Hebrews 3:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


He is addressing believers, true Christians, and warning them against developing an "evil heart of unbelief," in departing from the living God where they are already at. You cannot depart from a place where you are not already in. You are putting a completely wrong spin on the verse in order to read your false theology into it, instead of obtaining your theology from it. And that applies to the rest of your comments on those verses, therefore there is no need to discuss the rest.

Tares among the wheat.....when a pastor is speaking in a church, he addresses Christians....that doesn't mean some sitting in the pews aren't tares.
We KNOW there are tares among the wheat.....

Tares AMONG the wheat....read that again.

AGAIN....you refuse to address the verses that refute you and you go on to try to pit scripture against scripture because you are ignoring the context in favor of your theological beliefs.

1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 1
To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ: 2 May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

27 My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.


They will NEVER PERISH....Is Jesus wrong? According to your belief, He is.


ou mé: anymore, at all, neither, never
Original Word: οὐ
Transliteration: ou mé
Phonetic Spelling: (oo may)
Definition: anymore, at all, neither, never
HELPS Word-studies
3364 ou mḗ (from 3756 /ou, " not a fact" and 3361 /mḗ, "not a possibility") – a double negative which emphatically conveys, "not a fact . . . not even a possibility!" – literally, "no, no!"

[In English, a double negative has a positive meaning. In Greek, a double negative is extra-emphatic, expressing very dramatic, forceful negation.]

IT's not even a possibility that His sheep can perish....

Why do you insist they can?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
1) If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do TO lose it?
2) If you can lose your salvation, then what must do to NOT lose it?

I'm interested in direct answers, maybe even a list.

If you can't answer either question, then how do you know if you're saved?
1) The Only way you can fathom the loss of your Salvation is to violate Hebrews 6:4-6...
2) You must Persevere in the Faith by 'Grace Alone'; or else...

Or you would think so; but Peter is the Poster Boy for Unconditional Election...


Peter’s three Denials ~ by Reverend RV

Matthew 26:34 NIV
; “Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”

Have you ever been a Christian but left the Faith? One survey I read says that 70 percent of college students leave Christianity; that’s a staggering number. Most choose their ‘newfound’ learning over their old Sunday School lessons. I have found that because of many ‘oldfound’ teachings of Theology, they do not need to disown Jesus because of new teachings; but that’s a Gospel Tract for another day. This Gospel Tract is about Saint Peter’s three denials of his Lord. Before his crucifixion, Jesus told his disciples that they would be scattered because of him; Peter denied this and said he would never forsake him. Jesus was soon arrested, tried, found guilty, and crucified. Peter watched the trial from within the crowd but was soon recognized as a follower of Christ. Out of fright, Peter disowned Jesus three times; denouncing that he knew him. At his third denial, the rooster crowed and Jesus looked Peter in the eyes; then Peter left, weeping bitterly…

Earlier in Christ’s ministry, Peter confessed that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus replied by saying that this knowledge came from God. In the book of John, Jesus says “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my words and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” This is an amazing promise in the light of what happened to Peter; because he denied Jesus three times! In the Bible, the number three represents completion. This can be seen elsewhere when the Angels of Heaven declare that God is Holy, Holy, Holy; the fullest expression of Holiness. Peter disowned Jesus three times; there was no need for a fourth denial. If anyone could have lost his Salvation it should have been Peter. You ask, “But doesn’t the Bible say that if you deny Jesus, then you cannot be saved again?” The answer is yes; but do you know whether you are a Judas or a Peter? The Bible tells us that Peter went on to be one of the three leading pillars of the early Church. From the beginning of their relationship, Peter was Justified by Faith in Jesus and you cannot become unjustified; Peter is the ideal example when it comes to the unconditional eternal security of Saints…

After Jesus rose from the grave, he asked Peter three questions, the same question three times; “Peter, do you love me?” Peter answered yes all three times; another example of completion. While you still live, you can return to Jesus as Peter did and enjoy the completeness of your Justification. Perhaps you were not a Christian because you misunderstood the Gospel? We have Sinned against God by Lying, Stealing, committing Adultery, etc. Our Sin causes death; an eternal death in a fiery Hell. But the Godman Jesus Christ lived a Holy, Holy, Holy life obtaining a perfect record which he will trade to you for your Sinful, Sinful, Sinful life's record. Jesus died on the Cross and shed his blood to Atone for Sin. This Atonement is applied by God’s Grace through Faith in Jesus as our risen Lord and Savior, apart from any Work we can perform to earn this gift. Be like Peter; and come home…

John 6:68 KJV; Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.”
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
You are responding to this verse in Hebrews:

Hebrews 3:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


He is addressing believers, true Christians, and warning them against developing an "evil heart of unbelief," in departing from the living God where they are already at. You cannot depart from a place where you are not already in. You are putting a completely wrong spin on the verse in order to read your false theology into it, instead of obtaining your theology from it. And that applies to the rest of your comments on those verses, therefore there is no need to discuss the rest.
Hes addressing them which make a profession to be true believers . If they are true believers they wont depart. Thats why He wrote Heb 10 39

But we[believers] are not of them[professing to believe] who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

See the writer recognizes 2 different groups !
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
1) The Only way you can fathom the loss of your Salvation is to violate Hebrews 6:4-6...
2) You must Persevere in the Faith by 'Grace Alone'; or else...

Or you would think so; but Peter is the Poster Boy for Unconditional Election...


Peter’s three Denials ~ by Reverend RV

Matthew 26:34 NIV
; “Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”

Have you ever been a Christian but left the Faith? One survey I read says that 70 percent of college students leave Christianity; that’s a staggering number. Most choose their ‘newfound’ learning over their old Sunday School lessons. I have found that because of many ‘oldfound’ teachings of Theology, they do not need to disown Jesus because of new teachings; but that’s a Gospel Tract for another day. This Gospel Tract is about Saint Peter’s three denials of his Lord. Before his crucifixion, Jesus told his disciples that they would be scattered because of him; Peter denied this and said he would never forsake him. Jesus was soon arrested, tried, found guilty, and crucified. Peter watched the trial from within the crowd but was soon recognized as a follower of Christ. Out of fright, Peter disowned Jesus three times; denouncing that he knew him. At his third denial, the rooster crowed and Jesus looked Peter in the eyes; then Peter left, weeping bitterly…

Earlier in Christ’s ministry, Peter confessed that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus replied by saying that this knowledge came from God. In the book of John, Jesus says “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my words and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” This is an amazing promise in the light of what happened to Peter; because he denied Jesus three times! In the Bible, the number three represents completion. This can be seen elsewhere when the Angels of Heaven declare that God is Holy, Holy, Holy; the fullest expression of Holiness. Peter disowned Jesus three times; there was no need for a fourth denial. If anyone could have lost his Salvation it should have been Peter. You ask, “But doesn’t the Bible say that if you deny Jesus, then you cannot be saved again?” The answer is yes; but do you know whether you are a Judas or a Peter? The Bible tells us that Peter went on to be one of the three leading pillars of the early Church. From the beginning of their relationship, Peter was Justified by Faith in Jesus and you cannot become unjustified; Peter is the ideal example when it comes to the unconditional eternal security of Saints…

After Jesus rose from the grave, he asked Peter three questions, the same question three times; “Peter, do you love me?” Peter answered yes all three times; another example of completion. While you still live, you can return to Jesus as Peter did and enjoy the completeness of your Justification. Perhaps you were not a Christian because you misunderstood the Gospel? We have Sinned against God by Lying, Stealing, committing Adultery, etc. Our Sin causes death; an eternal death in a fiery Hell. But the Godman Jesus Christ lived a Holy, Holy, Holy life obtaining a perfect record which he will trade to you for your Sinful, Sinful, Sinful life's record. Jesus died on the Cross and shed his blood to Atone for Sin. This Atonement is applied by God’s Grace through Faith in Jesus as our risen Lord and Savior, apart from any Work we can perform to earn this gift. Be like Peter; and come home…

John 6:68 KJV; Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.”
How do we persevere....

1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 1
To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ: 2 May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

27 My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
zerinus

It is not just about the "tares". It is about true believers who can fall away.

No its not, thats in your imagination, its about those who profess to believe. If they fall back from that profession John writes 1 Jn 2:19-20

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
How do we persevere....

1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 1
To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ: 2 May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

27 My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
Amen 4Him. Those answers were meant to catch Matt Slick's attention, and apparently yours; I'm a 5-Point Calvinist. Unconditional Election means there is no good condition we can meet to deserve Election, and no bad condition we can meet 'to not deserve' Election; ergo it means there is no bad condition we can meet to deserve the loss of Salvation. Peter violated Hebrews 6:4-6 and deserved to lose his Salvation (and his Election); but he didn't lose either because Jesus was not Crucified again for him! Did you read the Gospel Tract? I'm not trying to be Antinomian here, but Unconditional Election goes both ways; there's nothing Good you can do to deserve it, and there's nothing Bad you can do to not deserve it; even something as bad as violating Hebrews 6:4-6, as Saint Peter found out...
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
No its not, thats in your imagination, its about those who profess to believe. If they fall back from that profession John writes 1 Jn 2:19-20

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
It has nothing to do with the tairs. These verses are not about the tares:

Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


The context makes it perfectly clear that it is not about the tares. They are about true believers who had fallen away.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
It has nothing to do with the tairs. These verses are not about the tares:

Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


The context makes it perfectly clear that it is not about the tares. They are about true believers who had fallen away.
You been told, but God has hidden it from your understanding !
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
It is not just about the "tares". It is about true believers who can fall away.

That IS what a tare is, a professed "true believer" who isn't. A believer in name only, never had a change of heart.
There are plenty of other scriptures that confirm this, which I have already discussed in the thread, Perseverance of The Saints, starting at page 2.

You can post them here and I'll gladly address those as well.

You still have not been able to reconcile the verses I gave with your belief that a believer can lose their salvation.

Jesus said they can never perish....You say they can. One of you is wrong.

I have addressed every scripture you posted, and can reconcile them without having them contradict each other. I'm waiting for you to do the same.
 
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4Him

Administrator
Staff member
It has nothing to do with the tairs. These verses are not about the tares:

Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Yes, it is absolutely about tares, since Jesus has said that His sheep SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Either you are wrong, or He is. Which do you suppose it is?

This should help....

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Again, tares.....keep reading, because you missed this very important part....

But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith for the safekeeping of the soul.
2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


The context makes it perfectly clear that it is not about the tares. They are about true believers who had fallen away.

Nope, the ENTIRE context of 2 Peter 2 is about FALSE prophets.....a false prophet is and never was a believer born from above....Wolves in sheeps clothing.

The VERY first verse tells us this, yet you missed this?

But false prophets also appeared among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

The rest of the chapter goes on to speak of those false prophets.

Lets take a look at what false prophet means....

ψευδοπροφήτης, ψευδοπροφήτου, ὁ (ψευδής and προφήτης), "one who, ACTING the part of a divinely inspired prophet, utters falsehoods under the name of divine prophecies, a false prophet

5578 pseudoprophḗtēs (from 5571 /pseudḗs, "false" and 4396 /prophḗtēs, "a prophet") – properly, a false prophet; someone PRETENDING to speak the word of the Lord (prophesy) but in fact is phony (AN IMPOSTER), acting as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

5578 /pseudoprophḗtēs ("a false prophet") specializes in "the art of misimpression," like about how they were "commissioned" by the Lord to touch the world with their message. But when in fact, they operate by self and for self so they must be exposed for what they are – and are not!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
That IS what a tare is. A believer in name only, never had a change of heart.
It is not about the tares. The scriptures quoted make it obvious that they refer to true believers who had fallen away.
You can post them here and I'll gladly address those as well.
I did in post #73, but they are best discussed in the other thread, because there I have already presented many of the arguments.
You still have not been able to reconcile the verses I gave with your belief that a believer can lose their salvation.

Jesus said they can never perish....You say they can. One of you is wrong.
The "reconciliation" occurs when the verses that disagree are taken together.
 
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