Two Questions: If you can lose your salvation, then...

zerinus

Well-known member
Yes, it is absolutely about tares, since Jesus has said that His sheep SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Either you are wrong, or He is. Which do you suppose it is?

This should help....



Again, tares.....keep reading, because you missed this very important part....

But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith for the safekeeping of the soul.


Nope, the ENTIRE context of 2 Peter 2 is about FALSE prophets.....a false prophet is and never was a believer born from above....Wolves in sheeps clothing.

The VERY first verse tells us this, yet you missed this?

But false prophets also appeared among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

The rest of the chapter goes on to speak of those false prophets.

Lets take a look at what false prophet means....

ψευδοπροφήτης, ψευδοπροφήτου, ὁ (ψευδής and προφήτης), "one who, ACTING the part of a divinely inspired prophet, utters falsehoods under the name of divine prophecies, a false prophet

5578 pseudoprophḗtēs (from 5571 /pseudḗs, "false" and 4396 /prophḗtēs, "a prophet") – properly, a false prophet; someone PRETENDING to speak the word of the Lord (prophesy) but in fact is phony (AN IMPOSTER), acting as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

5578 /pseudoprophḗtēs ("a false prophet") specializes in "the art of misimpression," like about how they were "commissioned" by the Lord to touch the world with their message. But when in fact, they operate by self and for self so they must be exposed for what they are – and are not!
Thanks for the reply, but our disagreements are so profound it is pointless to reply. As I said, I have already given my answers in the other thread.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
1) If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do TO lose it?
2) If you can lose your salvation, then what must do to NOT lose it?

I'm interested in direct answers, maybe even a list.

If you can't answer either question, then how do you know if you're saved?

1) N/A because the "if" is not possible. John 10:28... And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

2) N/A because the "if" is not possible. John 10:28... And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

3) Romans 10:9 for one... That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

P.S.

IMO the idea of "losing your salvation" is invalid. In any situation, if you survive at the end, then you had salvation. But if you do not survive at the end, then you do not have salvation. You cannot have salvation and then not have salvation.

For example, did anyone on the Titanic "lose salvation"? No. They either made it to shore or not. If someone was rescued in the life raft but died before reaching shore, they did not "lose salvation" because the determination of whether or not they were "saved" is whether or not they made it to shore alive.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
It is not about the tares.

Of course it is.
The scriptures quoted make it obvious that they refer to true believers who had fallen away.

A true believer, kept by the power of God, cannot fall away. His sheep shall never perish.

Was Jesus just kidding when He said this?
I did in post #73, but they are best discussed in the other thread, because there I have already presented many of the arguments.

The "reconciliation" occurs when the verses that disagree are taken together.

You haven't reconciled anything as of yet. I have. I'm waiting.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks for the reply, but our disagreements are so profound it is pointless to reply. As I said, I have already given my answers in the other thread.
Well, I'm posting on this thread, not the other thread. You haven't reconciled any verses I've presented and only tried to counter them by pitting scripture against scripture.
I have reconciled the verses you provided.

You have done nothing of the sort.
I posted in detail, how you are wrong, and all you can say is you disagree, no refutation whatsoever.

Jesus said His sheep shall never perish. You are saying they can. One of you is wrong and I'm sure we all know which one that is. You have yet to address this.

Let me remind you of what NEVER perish means.



ou mé: anymore, at all, neither, never
Original Word: οὐ
Transliteration: ou mé
Phonetic Spelling: (oo may)
Definition: anymore, at all, neither, never
HELPS Word-studies
3364 ou mḗ (from 3756 /ou, " not a fact" and 3361 /mḗ, "not a possibility") – a double negative which emphatically conveys, "not a fact . . . not even a possibility!" – literally, "no, no!"

[In English, a double negative has a positive meaning. In Greek, a double negative is extra-emphatic, expressing very dramatic, forceful negation.]

IT's not even a possibility that His sheep can perish....

Why do you insist they can?
 
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Sorry, but a lot of Calvinists fail to understand that someone who falls away from Christ, is backslidden, does NOT & is NOT following Christ. Ergo...they are NOT His sheep.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Sorry again, but it seems even Calvinist exegetes agree that the Apostle Paul feared becoming a reprobate after "preaching to others..." Let's look at the 'prince of preachers, Charles Spurgeon has to say -

Castaway = rejected, a reprobate.

I myself should become a reprobate - Disapproved by the Judge, and so falling short of the prize. This single text may give us a just notion of the scriptural doctrine of election and reprobation; and clearly shows us, that particular persons are not in holy writ represented as elected absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, or predestinated absolutely and unconditionally to eternal death; but that believers in general are elected to enjoy the Christian privileges on earth; which if they abuse, those very elect persons will become reprobate. St. Paul was certainly an elect person, if ever there was one; and yet he declares it was possible he himself might become a reprobate. Nay, he actually would have become such, if he had not thus kept his body under, even though he had been so long an elect person, a Christian, and an apostle.
St. Paul contemplates with horror the possibility of his preaching the gospel to others, and, by reason of his personal inconsistencies, proving at last a "castaway." No amount of religious profession, no fervent in religious work, no mere utterance of religious sentiment, can avail without personal and practical consistency of life.

Or, from Albert Barnes, another Calvinist -

"...Paul is afraid that he should be disapproved, rejected, cast off; that is would appear, after all, that he had no religion, and would then be cast away as unfit to enter into heaven...Ministers, like others, are in danger of losing their souls. If Paul felt this danger, who, is there among the ministers of the Cross who should not feel it? If Paul was not safe, who is? The fact that a man has preached to many is no certain evidence that he will be saved, Paul had preached to thousands and yet he felt that after all this there was a possibility that he might be lost.

Or, from John Wesley, not a Calvinist -

I myself should become a reprobate - Disapproved by the Judge, and so falling short of the prize. This single text may give us a just notion of the scriptural doctrine of election and reprobation; and clearly shows us, that particular persons are not in holy writ represented as elected absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, or predestinated absolutely and unconditionally to eternal death; but that believers in general are elected to enjoy the Christian privileges on earth; which if they abuse, those very elect persons will become reprobate. St. Paul was certainly an elect person, if ever there was one; and yet he declares it was possible he himself might become a reprobate. Nay, he actually would have become such, if he had not thus kept his body under, even though he had been so long an elect person, a Christian, and an apostle.

Or, from Adam Clarke, not a Calvinist -

On the subject of the possibility of St. Paul becoming a castaway, much has been said in contradiction to his own words. He most absolutely states the possibility of the case: and who has a right to call this in question?

So...i'm going to defer to men of God who knew Koine Greek as well as their native tongue & agree that one can definitely give up in the race & become a castaway - rejected by God, a reprobate doomed to eternal destruction!
 
A "true Christian," however, might argue like this:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16)
"he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matt. 10:22)
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38)
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations" (Luke 24:47)
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22)
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will . . ." (Matt. 7:21)
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34-35)


Your theology is selective. It is extremely selective. It is not based on what the whole of the Bible teaches, but on what a small fraction of the Bible teaches. A theology that is so highly selective is bound to be flawed, and cannot be teaching sound biblical doctrine.

You judge by mere knowledge. I judge by the heart.

Just because your long-time friend who goes to the same church with you since childhood doesn't mean he will not decide to leave for other faiths. Your friend is more knowledgeable than you with regards to the bible and yet he left the faith. I've experienced this first hand. No amount of convincing them would change their mind.

Mere bible knowledge doesn't represent what's in your heart. Only trials will.

I will not be surprised if that day comes when people start to take the mark, some Mormons, JW, SDAs, will be with me without the mark. And I will not be surprised that many evangelicals so-called mainstream Christians will take the mark. Everyone will be tried in the furnace to see what kind of heart you have.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
How can they be when you purposely took them out of context?
They are not "out of context". You would call something "out of context" if, when read in context, the the meaning would come out different than otherwise, which is not the case with the quotes I have given. By your definition, any scripture quoted out of the Bible will be "out of context," therefore one should never quote any verse out of the Bible. You must either quote the whole Bible or nothing, which is an absurd suggestion. The limited quotes I gave support the claim that Calvinist theology is based on a very limited portion of the Bible. A complete list of quotes would be much longer. If I wanted to quote and discuss every verse in the Bible that supports that claim, I would have to write a big book. Perhaps it would be a good idea if somebody would. But not many people can. There are not many who know their Bibles well enough to be able to.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
You judge by mere knowledge. I judge by the heart.

Just because your long-time friend who goes to the same church with you since childhood doesn't mean he will not decide to leave for other faiths. Your friend is more knowledgeable than you with regards to the bible and yet he left the faith. I've experienced this first hand. No amount of convincing them would change their mind.

Mere bible knowledge doesn't represent what's in your heart. Only trials will.

I will not be surprised if that day comes when people start to take the mark, some Mormons, JW, SDAs, will be with me without the mark. And I will not be surprised that many evangelicals so-called mainstream Christians will take the mark. Everyone will be tried in the furnace to see what kind of heart you have.
No idea what you are taking about. Either scripture means something or it doesn't. Which is it?
 
No idea what you are taking about. Either scripture means something or it doesn't. Which is it?

Actually, I had no idea as well what you've posted about being selective. Lol

The point I was making is that one may show perfect knowledge of salvation, the godhead, and whatnot. But, that's not a guarantee that this person will leave the faith for another. It is not also an indication that this person is saved by merely blurting out some verses that agree with you.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Actually, I had no idea as well what you've posted about being selective. Lol

The point I was making is that one may show perfect knowledge of salvation, the godhead, and whatnot. But, that's not a guarantee that this person will leave the faith for another. It is not also an indication that this person is saved by merely blurting out some verses that agree with you.
Still no idea what you are talking about. How does your comment relate to anything I had said before? What kind of a response were you expecting to receive from me? Scratching my head, haven't a clue. o_O
 

civic

Well-known member
It is not just about the "tares". It is about true believers who can fall away. There are plenty of other scriptures that confirm this, which I have already discussed in the thread, Perseverance of The Saints, starting at page 2.
is a person who is saved and then practices habitual sin still saved ? yes or no

does that person lose their salvation ? yes or no
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
is a person who is saved and then practices habitual sin still saved ? yes or no

does that person lose their salvation ? yes or no
1) Yes...
2) No...

'Saved' is a Category amongst itself. Saint Paul felt Peril in "Doing the Evil he didn't want to do and not doing the Good he wanted to do". A truly 'Saved' person can never ever lose their Salvation. Even Saint Peter didn't lose his Salvation when he violated Hebrews 6:4-6...
 
Last edited:

civic

Well-known member
1) Yes...
2) No...

'Saved' is a Category amongst itself. Saint Paul felt Peril in "Doing the Evil he didn't want to do and not doing the Good he wanted to do". A truly 'Saved' person can never ever lose their Salvation...
Agree I want to hear his response and then you will like my reply :)
 

zerinus

Well-known member
is a person who is saved and then practices habitual sin still saved ? yes or no

does that person lose their salvation ? yes or no
As I have made clear at beginning of this thread in my reply to Matt, I don't accept the idea that anyone is "saved" in this life until they have "endured to the end," as the Bible says. The Bible says, "he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13). Salvation itself belongs to the next life, not this life. Nobody is "saved" in this life until they have "endured to the end," and entered the kingdom of God in heaven. That is the answer to the first part of your question.

As far as "sins" are concerned, "habitual" or otherwise, the Bible says that we need to repent of them to be saved. Not sure what you mean "habitual" sins. You mean somebody who habitually goes around murdering people? Or who habitually goes around raping people? Or who habitually goes around bungling people's houses? Etc. The Bible makes it clear that such people have not eternal life, unless they repent of their sins:


1 Corinthians 6:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:

7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
 

civic

Well-known member
As I have made clear at beginning of this thread in my reply to Matt, I don't accept the idea that anyone is "saved" in this life until they have "endured to the end," as the Bible says. The Bible says, "he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13). Salvation itself belongs to the next life, not this life. Nobody is "saved" in this life until they have "endured to the end," and entered the kingdom of God in heaven. That is the answer to the first part of your question.

As far as "sins" are concerned, "habitual" or otherwise, the Bible says that we need to repent of them to be saved. Not sure what you mean "habitual" sins. You mean somebody who habitually goes around murdering people? Or who habitually goes around raping people? Or who habitually goes around bungling people's houses? Etc. The Bible makes it clear that such people have not eternal life, unless they repent of their sins:


1 Corinthians 6:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:

7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
so does a practicing hypocrite have eternal life ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
As I have made clear at beginning of this thread in my reply to Matt, I don't accept the idea that anyone is "saved" in this life until they have "endured to the end," as the Bible says. The Bible says, "he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13). Salvation itself belongs to the next life, not this life. Nobody is "saved" in this life until they have "endured to the end," and entered the kingdom of God in heaven. That is the answer to the first part of your question.

As far as "sins" are concerned, "habitual" or otherwise, the Bible says that we need to repent of them to be saved. Not sure what you mean "habitual" sins. You mean somebody who habitually goes around murdering people? Or who habitually goes around raping people? Or who habitually goes around bungling people's houses? Etc. The Bible makes it clear that such people have not eternal life, unless they repent of their sins:


1 Corinthians 6:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:

7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Those people Christ died for arent charged with sin, God doesnt impute their sins unto them 2 Cor 5 19

19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
so does a practicing hypocrite have eternal life ?
Not sure what you mean by a "practising hypocrite". If you mean somebody who is knowingly and wilfully a hypocrite, and knows that he is, and knows how not to be, but still prefers to be, the answer is no, such a person does not have eternal life.
 
Top