Two Questions: If you can lose your salvation, then...

zerinus

Well-known member
yikes you really twisting Peters epistle.

I can say he is talking about mormons in that passage. See how absurd you make scripture look ?
LOL! There is no question that Calvinistic theology is derived almost entirely from the writings of Paul; and since it is also almost entirely wrong, it can only have been derived from a misreading of Paul. Paul could not have been as wrong as that.
 

civic

Well-known member
LOL! There is no question that Calvinistic theology is derived almost entirely from the writings of Paul; and since it is also almost entirely wrong, it can only have been derived from a misreading of Paul. Paul could have never been as wrong as that.
now back to our regular scheduled programming. Paul confronted Peters continual sin of Hypocrisy yet he still had Eternal Life which contradicts what you said earlier. As soon as I pointed out it was Peter you started backtracking and making excuses for Peter when Paul said he stood condemned.

Who should I believe ?

A) the Bible which agrees with me
B) or you which contradicts the bible

The choice is obvious for anyone with a hint of discernment, spiritual wisdom and believes Gods word is the truth.

BTW- I'm a bible believing Christian, not any ism or ist or anything or anyone else you try and fit into your box.

hope this helps !!!
 

civic

Well-known member
That is simply false. No "continual sin" is anywhere implied.
Its self evident from Paul's description in Galatians and Luke in Acts. And Peter in 2 Peter 3:15-16 declares Galatians is Scripture even knowing it condemns his own actions and hypocrisy.

you need to believe Scripture not your churches teachings.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
LOL! There is no question that Calvinistic theology is derived almost entirely from the writings of Paul; and since it is also almost entirely wrong, it can only have been derived from a misreading of Paul. Paul could not have been as wrong as that.

Did "Paul" write Gen. 50:20?
Did "Paul" write Isa. 10:5-7?
Did "Paul" write Acts 4:27-28?
Did "Paul" write Acts 13:48?
Did "Paul" write John 6:44?
Did "Paul" write John 10:26-29?
Did "Paul" write 2 Pet. 3:8-9?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Its self evident from Paul's description in Galatians and Luke in Acts. And Peter in 2 Peter 3:15-16 declares Galatians is Scripture even knowing it condemns his own actions and hypocrisy.

you need to believe Scripture not your churches teachings.
Sorry, you are not making sense. No idea what you are talking about.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sorry, you are not making sense. No idea what you are talking about.

So when Bonnie can't understand you, it's the non-Mormon's fault.
But when you can't understand civic, it's the non-Mormon's fault.

It's NEVER the Mormon's fault, right?
 

'Civic' asked -​

is a person who is saved and then practices habitual sin still saved ? yes or no

...

I would seriously question whether that person was genuinely saved or not as per the Scriptures listed below - or that person, at one time, did follow Christ & was one of His sheep & then, as a dog returns to it's vomit or the pig to the mud, he/she gives up in the race, desiring the pleasures of sin "for a season" & refuses the Spirit's call to repent & turn back to following Christ & thereby becomes a reprobate, no longer hearing the Spirit's call (if indeed the HS continues to call that person - Gen. 6:3)

My spirit shall not always strive with man - "The spirit then strove by Noah's preaching, 1Pe 3:19, and by inward checks, but 'twas in vain with the most of men; therefore saith God, he shall not always strive..." (Wesley's Commentary)

Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

James 4:17

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

1 John 3:9

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Romans 6:1-8:39

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. ...

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 3:6

Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

Matthew 7:1-8:34

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...

1 John 5:18

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

1 John 3:6

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

1 John 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Corinthians 5:11

But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

2 Timothy 1:7

For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

1 Corinthians 6:9

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

James 3:1-2

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.

Hebrews 6:10

For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.

Acts 17:30

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Luke 6:46

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Matthew 5:48

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Ephesians 4:30

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

John 3:3

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

1 Corinthians 15:1-58

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ...

Romans 3:8

And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

BTW, nice to see you AGAIN brother 'Civic' - contending for the faith against those who deny our God is Triune in nature & deny our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ is "God over all, forever praised. AMEN!" Pray that you & yours are doing well, enjoying God's richest favour. Though we may disagree on points of our view on soteriology, we are brothers in Christ by His undeserved mercy & grace - HALLELUJAH!!
 

civic

Well-known member

'Civic' asked -​

is a person who is saved and then practices habitual sin still saved ? yes or no

...

I would seriously question whether that person was genuinely saved or not as per the Scriptures listed below - or that person, at one time, did follow Christ & was one of His sheep & then, as a dog returns to it's vomit or the pig to the mud, he/she gives up in the race, desiring the pleasures of sin "for a season" & refuses the Spirit's call to repent & turn back to following Christ & thereby becomes a reprobate, no longer hearing the Spirit's call (if indeed the HS continues to call that person - Gen. 6:3)

My spirit shall not always strive with man - "The spirit then strove by Noah's preaching, 1Pe 3:19, and by inward checks, but 'twas in vain with the most of men; therefore saith God, he shall not always strive..." (Wesley's Commentary)

Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

James 4:17

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

1 John 3:9

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Romans 6:1-8:39

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. ...

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 3:6

Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

Matthew 7:1-8:34

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...

1 John 5:18

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

1 John 3:6

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

1 John 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Corinthians 5:11

But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

2 Timothy 1:7

For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

1 Corinthians 6:9

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

James 3:1-2

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.

Hebrews 6:10

For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.

Acts 17:30

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Luke 6:46

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Matthew 5:48

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Ephesians 4:30

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

John 3:3

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

1 Corinthians 15:1-58

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ...

Romans 3:8

And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

BTW, nice to see you AGAIN brother 'Civic' - contending for the faith against those who deny our God is Triune in nature & deny our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ is "God over all, forever praised. AMEN!" Pray that you & yours are doing well, enjoying God's richest favour. Though we may disagree on points of our view on soteriology, we are brothers in Christ by His undeserved mercy & grace - HALLELUJAH!!
Great passages and I agree with them. How would you handle Peter in Galatians 2 ?
 
I believe this was more a cultural issue, error rather than rank sin, still something that Paul needed to reprove him of - not habitual error because, by all accounts Peter learned his lesson. I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed - For fear of man, ver. 12; for dissimulation, ver. 13; and for not walking uprightly. ver. 14. (Wesley), dissembled likewise--Greek, "joined in hypocrisy," namely, in living as though the law were necessary to justification, through fear of man, though they knew from God their Christian liberty of eating with Gentiles, and had availed themselves of it already (Ac 11:2-17). The case was distinct from that in 1Co 8-10; Ro 14. It was not a question of liberty, and of bearing with others' infirmities, but one affecting the essence of the Gospel, whether the Gentiles are to be virtually "compelled to live as do the Jews," in order to be justified (Ga 2:14). (J-F-B)

Galatians 2:14-16 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This, you would have to agree is much different than the passages in 1 Cor. 6 -

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul goes on to say that they DID NOT continue habitually in these sins once they believed & received Christ - far from it because he proclaims -

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

They became "new creatures in Christ...the old passing away & ALL things becoming new" as they progressed in their sanctification.

Ergo, this is my case for someone who habitually sins is 1) either never been saved in the first place OR 2) takes their hand from the plow, desires the pleasures of sin rather than the favour of God & gives up in the race.

BTW, i'm suprised that no one responded to my first post (post # 86) citing Spurgeon, Barnes (Calvinists) & Wesley & Clarke (Arminians) on what Paul meant when he feared, after preaching to many, he himself would be found a "castaway"
 

armylngst

Well-known member
How do we know we are saved?

Another good point and good question. What is particularly interesting about that prayer is that it was not meant to be a once for all prayer, but a continual prayer that a Christian were to offer throughout his life. That undermines further the "once saved, always saved" doctrine. What if a true believer and convert neglected that prayer (or the underlying message embedded in it) at some point later in his life. Suppose a genuine convert 20 years down the line began hating someone who had done them wrong, and could not bring himself to forgive. Is his "salvation" still guaranteed? Is he still "saved"? I wonder what answer Matt Slick has to give to that question.
Once Saved Always Saved is a heresy connected to the cheap grace movement. Perseverance of the Saints is something that is completely different. I once saw an explanation of why OSAS is wrong, and I never looked back. OSAS is man centered, in that we did something, said a prayer, and lived like the devil since, but on judgement day remind God that we were saved once, and, well, once saved always saved. Have a nice day. Perseverance of the Saints says that God saved us, and God will be faithful to see us through to the end. If we fail to make it through the end for any reason, then God is unfaithful. I understand in other thread where you said that my belief that God is faithful is bad theology, but I will continue to believe that God is faithful.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Of course it depends on Christ's work, but you have the option of accepting or rejecting his offer.
Since when? Justification is the action, and, if you understood what justification is, you would understand that we cannot undo it. God declares us in His sight, by His Law and decree, to be justified. That is, our sins are gone. It is not something God does lightly because we ask. It is accomplished by the substitutionary act of Christ's sacrifice on the cross, where our sin is substituted by Christ's righteousness. The only way for this to rejected is for God to countermand His declaration, which hopefully you understand would besmirch God's Holy Name.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Once Saved Always Saved is a heresy connected to the cheap grace movement. Perseverance of the Saints is something that is completely different. I once saw an explanation of why OSAS is wrong, and I never looked back. OSAS is man centered, in that we did something, said a prayer, and lived like the devil since, but on judgement day remind God that we were saved once, and, well, once saved always saved. Have a nice day. Perseverance of the Saints says that God saved us, and God will be faithful to see us through to the end. If we fail to make it through the end for any reason, then God is unfaithful.
You are now obfuscating and trying to obscure what you really believe. What you call "perseverance of the saints" I call "once saved, always saved".
I understand in other thread where you said that my belief that God is faithful is bad theology, but I will continue to believe that God is faithful.
Talking nonsense. I never said any such thing. See my reply in the other thread.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Since when? Justification is the action, and, if you understood what justification is, you would understand that we cannot undo it. God declares us in His sight, by His Law and decree, to be justified. That is, our sins are gone. It is not something God does lightly because we ask. It is accomplished by the substitutionary act of Christ's sacrifice on the cross, where our sin is substituted by Christ's righteousness. The only way for this to rejected is for God to countermand His declaration, which hopefully you understand would besmirch God's Holy Name.
You are simply presenting your theology as you understand it, which is not biblical, and therefore not true.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
What's wrong with that when this is the Calvinism and Arminianism Board on the Theology Forum?

There is not a thing wrong with it.

For a person who believes in an evil man complete with magic tablets, magic underwear and hocus pocus hasn't a leg to stand on where it concerns the Bible. And... especially a theological argument. Mormonism is made up wishful thinking and doesn't even have a single foundation based in Christianity. No Trinity, No Godhead, no orthodoxy. No valid argument because it rejects the teachings of the Bible.

Keep standing for the truth Rev!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
There is not a thing wrong with it.

For a person who believes in an evil man complete with magic tablets, magic underwear and hocus pocus hasn't a leg to stand on where it concerns the Bible. And... especially a theological argument. Mormonism is made up wishful thinking and doesn't even have a single foundation based in Christianity. No Trinity, No Godhead, no orthodoxy. No valid argument because it rejects the teachings of the Bible.

Keep standing for the truth Rev!
Why should a Christian want to 'win' an argument with a cultist?
I am here to discuss Calvinism vs. Arminianism, not Mormonism. If you want to discuss Mormonism, I suggest you take it to the Mormonism forum. The bottom line is that Calvinism is unbiblical, heretical, and false, and the sooner it is abandoned for a more Bible centered theology, the better it will be for all concerned. Give it up! It is bad for your soul! It is the road to damnation, not salvation.
 
Top