Two Questions: If you can lose your salvation, then...

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
I am here to discuss Calvinism vs. Arminianism, not Mormonism. If you want to discuss Mormonism, I suggest you take it to the Mormonism forum. The bottom line is that Calvinism is unbiblical, heretical, and false, and the sooner it is abandoned for a more Bible centered theology, the better it will be for all concerned. Give it up! It is bad for your soul! It is the road to damnation, not salvation.

I rest my case. Your unbiblical approach has not provided you with a Christian foundation. Since you are indeed a cultist you have no standing. If you believe in aberrant doctrines, and you do, then once again you have no standing.

You are not able to rightly exegete scripture because you have no hermeneutic and you do not have the aid of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible warns us not to be yoked with unbelievers and you an unbeliever.

From Got Questions.

Question: "What does it mean to be unequally yoked?"

Answer:
The phrase “unequally yoked” comes from 2 Corinthians 6:14 in the King James Version: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” The New American Standard Version says, “Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?”

A yoke is a wooden bar that joins two oxen to each other and to the burden they pull. An “unequally yoked” team has one stronger ox and one weaker, or one taller and one shorter. The weaker or shorter ox would walk more slowly than the taller, stronger one, causing the load to go around in circles. When oxen are unequally yoked, they cannot perform the task set before them. Instead of working together, they are at odds with one another.

Paul’s admonition in 2 Corinthians 6:14 is part of a larger discourse to the church at Corinth on the Christian life. He discouraged them from being in an unequal partnership with unbelievers because believers and unbelievers are opposites, just as light and darkness are opposites. They simply have nothing in common, just as Christ has nothing in common with “Belial,” a Hebrew word meaning “worthlessness” (verse 15). Here Paul uses it to refer to Satan. The idea is that the pagan, wicked, unbelieving world is governed by the principles of Satan and that Christians should be separate from that wicked world, just as Christ was separate from all the methods, purposes, and plans of Satan. He had no participation in them; He formed no union with them, and so it should be with the followers of the one in relation to the followers of the other. Attempting to live a Christian life with a non-Christian for our close friend and ally will only cause us to go around in circles.

The “unequal yoke” is often applied to business relationships. For a Christian to enter into a partnership with an unbeliever is to court disaster. Unbelievers have opposite worldviews and morals, and business decisions made daily will reflect the worldview of one partner or the other. For the relationship to work, one or the other must abandon his moral center and move toward that of the other. More often than not, it is the believer who finds himself pressured to leave his Christian principles behind for the sake of profit and the growth of the business.

Of course, the closest alliance one person can have with another is found in marriage, and this is how the passage is usually interpreted. God’s plan is for a man and a woman to become “one flesh” (Genesis 2:24), a relationship so intimate that one literally and figuratively becomes part of the other. Uniting a believer with an unbeliever is essentially uniting opposites, which makes for a very difficult marriage relationship.

What does it mean to be unequally yoked? | GotQuestions.org

However I pray you will find the TRIUNE God of the Universe and accept the gift of grace.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I rest my case. Your unbiblical approach has not provided you with a Christian foundation. Since you are indeed a cultist you have no standing. If you believe in aberrant doctrines, and you do, then once again you have no standing.

You are not able to rightly exegete scripture because you have no hermeneutic and you do not have the aid of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible warns us not to be yoked with unbelievers and you an unbeliever.

From Got Questions.

Question: "What does it mean to be unequally yoked?"

Answer:
The phrase “unequally yoked” comes from 2 Corinthians 6:14 in the King James Version: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” The New American Standard Version says, “Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?”

A yoke is a wooden bar that joins two oxen to each other and to the burden they pull. An “unequally yoked” team has one stronger ox and one weaker, or one taller and one shorter. The weaker or shorter ox would walk more slowly than the taller, stronger one, causing the load to go around in circles. When oxen are unequally yoked, they cannot perform the task set before them. Instead of working together, they are at odds with one another.

Paul’s admonition in 2 Corinthians 6:14 is part of a larger discourse to the church at Corinth on the Christian life. He discouraged them from being in an unequal partnership with unbelievers because believers and unbelievers are opposites, just as light and darkness are opposites. They simply have nothing in common, just as Christ has nothing in common with “Belial,” a Hebrew word meaning “worthlessness” (verse 15). Here Paul uses it to refer to Satan. The idea is that the pagan, wicked, unbelieving world is governed by the principles of Satan and that Christians should be separate from that wicked world, just as Christ was separate from all the methods, purposes, and plans of Satan. He had no participation in them; He formed no union with them, and so it should be with the followers of the one in relation to the followers of the other. Attempting to live a Christian life with a non-Christian for our close friend and ally will only cause us to go around in circles.

The “unequal yoke” is often applied to business relationships. For a Christian to enter into a partnership with an unbeliever is to court disaster. Unbelievers have opposite worldviews and morals, and business decisions made daily will reflect the worldview of one partner or the other. For the relationship to work, one or the other must abandon his moral center and move toward that of the other. More often than not, it is the believer who finds himself pressured to leave his Christian principles behind for the sake of profit and the growth of the business.

Of course, the closest alliance one person can have with another is found in marriage, and this is how the passage is usually interpreted. God’s plan is for a man and a woman to become “one flesh” (Genesis 2:24), a relationship so intimate that one literally and figuratively becomes part of the other. Uniting a believer with an unbeliever is essentially uniting opposites, which makes for a very difficult marriage relationship.

What does it mean to be unequally yoked? | GotQuestions.org

However I pray you will find the TRIUNE God of the Universe and accept the gift of grace.
No more answers will be given. If you want to discuss Mormonism, take it to the Mormonism forum. Nevertheless you need to know that you believe in a corrupt, dead, false, apstat religion that leads to damnation rather than salvation. Calvinism is the biggest "cult," and the most damnable heresy that has ever been invented since Christianity came into existence.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
You are now obfuscating and trying to obscure what you really believe. What you call "perseverance of the saints" I call "once saved, always saved".
Not at all. They are two completely different things, if one truly understands them. It doesn't matter what you call it, as lies don't matter. It is the truth that matters. They are NOT the same thing. Once saved, always saved has nothing to do with God. I states that if you could ever point to a time, no matter how you did it, that you [perhaps as a serial killer] could say, "Sure, I was saved once...rejected it.", a proponent of OSAS would say, doesn't matter, you were once saved, so you are always saved, doesn't matter what you say or how you live. I am not sure how any true believer, anyone who is being serious in discussion would mistake that with Jude 24-25. Two completely different beliefs, that, if you understood it, you would realize they are actually contradictions of each other. One is from man. The proponents of OSAS don't even believe the gospel. To them, if you say you are saved, and then become a serial killer, a porn star, etc... you are saved, because OSAS. They don't believe in false conversion, or that people are deceived into believing they are saved. It all counts, and OSAS.

Perseverance of the saints is as Jude 24-25 says, based on the ability and faithfulness of God, it is not dependent on us. Since God is the author of our faith, He is also the completer/perfecter of our faith. He began the good work within us, and it is He who will be faithful to complete it. No need for OSAS, when God has already pledged to be faithful to save those who truly believe in His son, and are truthfully saved, to present them blameless in His presence. If you fail to see beyond the bridge of your nose, it isn't my fault, as this will be the second time that I have explained why perseverance of the saints and once saved, always saved are not the same thing. If you continue to say they are, you cast aspersion on the God you believe you told that you are saved, because you, with your libertarian free will, chose to be saved.
Talking nonsense. I never said any such thing. See my reply in the other thread.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
You are simply presenting your theology as you understand it, which is not biblical, and therefore not true.
So, some quick questions:
1. Do you believe in the penal substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ, where his righteousness becomes our righteousness, because He took our sins upon Himself, and put His righteousness upon us, and He died, paying the penalty that was for us?

2. Do you know what pelagianism is, and can you somehow show how that isn't your belief?

3. Do you know the definition of justification, and is that something that we can do for ourselves?

4. Do you believe we need to be justified to be saved?

5. Can you lose your salvation, and if you can, how does that prove to believers that God is faithful?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
You should reread what you replied to, because the part that you respond to being bad theology is that God is faithful.
You have given several lengthy replies to several of my posts lately, in this as well as in other threads, all of which are too irrational to be capable of being replied to, therefore no further replies are required.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
You have given several lengthy replies to several of my posts lately, in this as well as in other threads, all of which are too irrational to be capable of being replied to, therefore no further replies are required.
Wow. I thought saying you appear to be a pelagian is pretty logical and clear?
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
1) If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do TO lose it?
2) If you can lose your salvation, then what must do to NOT lose it?

I'm interested in direct answers, maybe even a list.

If you can't answer either question, then how do you know if you're saved?

Salvation is an EVENT. People don't lose or keep past events anymore than they lose or keep last Thursday.

The question is not about losing a past Ephesians 2:8 event. The question is about whether that same person will be saved when Jesus comes again (Heb 9:28) or whether they will fall short of that salvation event.

You are plainly confused.

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civic

Well-known member
No more answers will be given. If you want to discuss Mormonism, take it to the Mormonism forum. Nevertheless you need to know that you believe in a corrupt, dead, false, apstat religion that leads to damnation rather than salvation. Calvinism is the biggest "cult," and the most damnable heresy that has ever been invented since Christianity came into existence.
what makes it a cult ?
please define what a cult is ?
what is heretical about it ?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
1) If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do TO lose it?
2) If you can lose your salvation, then what must do to NOT lose it?

I'm interested in direct answers, maybe even a list.

If you can't answer either question, then how do you know if you're saved?

I was thinking of the Hebrews verses:

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 3:12-14---King James Version
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
When Scripture speaks of the believer possessing “life” it always refers to eternal life. Because eternal life can never coexist with eternal death, once one possesses eternal life, it forever nullifies the possibility of ever possessing eternal death. This is why Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24).

Again, if God had intended to convey the idea that a believer could be lost, He would never have spoken of eternal life as a present possession. But because we are now possessors of eternal life, Scripture tells us that we are present possessors of the future inheritance that will bring to fruition all that is involved in having eternal life now (Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 9:15; 1 Peter 1:4,5).​
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
redeemed

When Scripture speaks of the believer possessing “life” it always refers to eternal life.

Believers begin a possession of eternal life experientially in time when they believe, but they had eternal life as a Gift from eternity. Eternal life has no beginning or end. God gave them their seed to eternal life in their election in Christ. 1 Jn 5 11

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

The Elect have always been in His Son Eph 1:4

4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The promise of eternal life was to them in Christ Titus 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 in hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
If you think you can lose your salvation, that you're not eternally secure, that the saints don't persevere you are being deceived. The bad news about being deceived is you don't know you're being deceived because your deceived. And in trying to argue against the truth of eternal security you will do so from your emotions and not your intellect.

If you used your intellect you would understand God's amazing love. The word of God clearly tells us that God poured his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit Romans 5:5. If you're a follower of Jesus you can't damn that stream up, his grace is greater. God proved his love conclusively and irrefutably by sending his son to the cross as an atoning sacrifice for our sins Romans 5:8, first John 4:9-10.

I think one of the most amazing things about God's love is that it is extended to us when we do not deserve it and continues steadfast and strong even when we fall short. In other words his love is unconditional.

He made it real easy for us to walk in his love, take a real good look at first John 1:5-10

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

Jesus said that he was the way and the truth and the life and that no man comes to the father except through him. So if you have the truth "Jesus" you'll have this little thing called Holy Spirit conviction. And that Holy Spirit conviction will make you want to confess your sins and get cleansed from all unrighteousness.

That certainly is different from our love, we have a tendency to show more love to people who obviously love us and behave the way we would like them to behave and less love to ones who do not.

There is not one good thing in any of us that merits God's love. He does not love us because we are so lovable or because we can somehow make ourselves worthy of his love. I think to really drive this home there is a great biblical illustration of God's unconditional love in his relationship with the nation of Israel you know those people God chose.

I love what it says in Deuteronomy 7:7-8 the Lord did not set his love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people's, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which he swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh the king of Egypt.

Can you see what God's implying there in his word? There is no human reason for his love for Israel. They were a rebellious, stiff-necked people. But he love them simply because he loved them, that's how it is with us he loves us because he loves us. Nothing we ever did made him love us, so there's nothing we could ever do to make him stop loving us. He love he loves us when we sin just as much is when we don't. He never stops loving us.

One last point, think of the marriage supper of the Lamb where Jesus is the bridegroom and we are the bride. Do you have that picture in your head, good.

Now think of the picture of Israel's unfaithfulness in her relationship with God as shown to us in Hosea chapter 2. There we see Hosea's love for his unfaithful wife, Gomer. Did God tell him to dump her because she was unfaithful?

I will betroth you to me for ever; yes, I will betroth you to me in righteousness and justice, in steadfast love, and in mercy. I will even betroth you to me in stability and in faithfulness, and you shall know "recognize, be acquainted with, appreciate, give heed to and cherish" the Lord Hosea 2:19 – 20

Trust me if you belong to him he will make sure you're you make it all the way home. He is more than able to make you stand, you're not going to fall if you're his. The truth is it's no longer a sin issue since sin has been dealt with and taken out of the way of the cross. It's an obedience issue now, we are to hear and obey.

He's a good good father and if you don't obey him and you want to do life your way you might want to check out the parable of the prodigal son. When you get sick of feeding pigs just go back to him and he will run out to meet you. It will be party time!

Then we meet the other son, let's just say he represents people that think you can lose your salvation. Now this older son was in the field, and as he drew near the house, he heard music and dancing. And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. The servant told him that his father had killed the fatted calf because his brother had come home. The older brother was angry: what? My no good useless brother who ran off with that inheritance and left me back here to do all the work is back? And we are having a party?

The older brother would not go in, and the father noticed that he was missing. So the father came out and pleaded with him, but the older brother said, (emotionally) "look, these many years I have served you, and I have never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours comes, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fatted calf for him!"

Oh Oh...and the really good part

The father said to the sun, "son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive, he was lost, and is found."

The father never stopped loving him or gave up on him.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
I believe the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is a gift. 🎁

Ephesians 2:8 teaches that salvation “is the gift of God.”

In John 10:28 Jesus said, “I give eternal life to them and they shall never perish.”

Romans 6:23 teaches that “the free gift of God is eternal life.”

Scripture also teaches that the grace of God is a gift given the believer.

1 Corinthians 1:4 refers to “the grace of God which was given you.”

Ephesians 3:7 speaks of “the gift of God’s grace.”

The Bible also says that we have been “justified as a gift” (Romans 3:24), and therefore we have “the gift of righteousness” (Romans 5:17).

So the question is, why would God ever take back the gifts He has freely given? If salvation is a gift consisting of irreversible actions, can it ever be returned?

Romans 11:29 says that “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

The Living Bible reads, “For God’s gift and his call can never be withdrawn; he will never go back on his promises.”

The Amplified Bible teaches, “For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]”

But but this is the really cool part: Scripture also teaches that it is actually the believer who is a gift from God the Father to His Son, Jesus Christ. Consider the following statements by Jesus Himself:

All that the Father gives me will come to me (John 6:37).

For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him (John 17:2).

I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me (John 17:6).

I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours (John 17:9).

Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am and to see my glory (John 17:24).

In all these verses, and others, Jesus tells us that every true believer in Christ has been a special gift from the Father to Him. Now how cool is that?

Think about this, would Jesus ever refuse a gift from the Father? Is this even conceivable? If Christians could lose their salvation, doesn’t this mean that the Father would have to take back those He gave to His Son as a special gift?

See where I'm going with this?

Would Jesus ever allow a precious gift from the Father to be sent to hell and eternally lost? If so, why would God ever present a man or woman to his own Son as a gift in the first place—when He knew that one day the gift would be taken from Him and consigned to eternal judgment?

That is an impossibility because God’s purpose, omniscience, and character could not allow it.

That is why Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand” (John 10:28)

And, “All that the Father gives me will come to me and...I shall lose none of all that he has given me.…

And I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:37-40)

And, “I have not lost one of those you gave me” (John 18:9).

That's it and of story, mic drop... you can not lose your salvation.


 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Here's something I posted in the Catholic forums on the old CARM boards:

Since our salvation was not initiated by us, was not bought by us, and is not held by us, how can it be ours to lose?

"Lose" is not entirely accurate. "Fail" will be more accurate.

The same argument could be made that if Grace is always irresistible then how can it be resisted? Yet, we know the Scriptures.

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God

It is my observation that most Calvinist will not engage unless you accept their terminology.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
1) If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do TO lose it?
2) If you can lose your salvation, then what must do to NOT lose it?

I'm interested in direct answers, maybe even a list.

If you can't answer either question, then how do you know if you're saved?

There are conditions, even to free gifts. Example, a father gives His son a free car. Condition: the man is his son.

1 John 3:18-24
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. ... 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Before I was actually born again after going to church for 30 years, not one of my prayers were answered. But as soon as I was born again of the Spirit, I suddenly knew the condition and now 100% of my prayers are answered.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
There are conditions, even to free gifts. Example, a father gives His son a free car. Condition: the man is his son.

What?!
That's ridiculous!

Why not say the "condition" is that he happens to have blue eyes?
Why not say the "condition" is that he's left-handed?
Why not say the "condition" is that he has brown hair?
Why not say the "condition" is that he's six feet tall?

I guess there are a LOT of "conditions", right?
Or maybe NONE of those were "conditions" for the gift.

Maybe one man chose to give a gift to another.
And the fact that he's left-handed is simply irrelevant.
And the fact that he's six feet tall is simply irrelevant.
And the fact that he's his son is simply irrelevant.
 
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