Ukraine Nazi Azov Batallion Surrenders Mariupol Steel Plant

Theophilos

Active member
Perhaps Secretary Austin's call to his Russian counterpart was a desperate attempt get an immediate cease fire to prevent the surrender.


CNN continues to call the surrender of Ukrainian forces an "evacuation", but they are now tacitly admitting that the evacuation is really a surrender. Ukraine stories are no longer on the front page of their website:

Ukrainians who surrendered at Azovstal should face trial, says DPR leader​


For a detailed report that uses Russian sources see:
 
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Truth7t7

Well-known member
Perhaps Secretary Austin's call to his Russian counterpart was a desperate attempt get an immediate cease fire to prevent the surrender.


CNN continues to call the surrender of Ukrainian forces an "evacuation", but they are now tacitly admitting that the evacuation is really a surrender. Ukraine stories are no longer on the front page of their website:

Ukrainians who surrendered at Azovstal should face trial, says DPR leader​


For a detailed report that uses Russian sources see:
Evacuation to medical facilities under Russian control for the wounded, and prison cells for the Ukranian military

The Azov members should stand trial, unbelievable atrocities, shooting ethnic Russian Ukranian civilians, etc

The western MSM fabricates lies on events in Ukraine, 4 weeks ago they had Ukraine pushing Russia out of Mariupol "Lies", now Russian flags are flying everywhere, a new government is installed, with victory parades in the streets

I agree with your analysis on Austin's call, and yes America and the west is using Ukraine as a bloody pawn for their own means, sad
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Evacuation to medical facilities under Russian control for the wounded, and prison cells for the Ukranian military

The Azov members should stand trial, unbelievable atrocities, shooting ethnic Russian Ukranian civilians, etc

The western MSM fabricates lies on events in Ukraine, 4 weeks ago they had Ukraine pushing Russia out of Mariupol "Lies", now Russian flags are flying everywhere, a new government is installed, with victory parades in the streets

I agree with your analysis on Austin's call, and yes America and the west is using Ukraine as a bloody pawn for their own means, sad
Still pushing the Russian propaganda I see. Careful, even mainstream Russian media has started showing criticism of how the war is going, presumably to prepare the public for the humiliation that is to come.
Virtually everything you say here is not just untrue but a grotesque, distorted, mirror image of the truth. Massive human rights abuses and war crimes have been carried out... by the Russians. Overwhelming evidence for which has been obtained by... Ukrainian forces pushing the hapless and hopeless Russians into retreat.

Putin started this war with the aim of taking the whole of Ukraine, removing the elected government and replacing it with a puppet regime and absorbing the entire Donbas region into Russia. After all this time, and having lost up to a third of his combat troops, western Ukraine including Kyiv is safe, Kharkiv is safe, Odessa is safe, Ukraine forces are able to shell Russian supply lines, in Russia. Putin's ambitions have been reduced to seizing a portion of Eastern Donbas. The "liberated" Mariupol has been destroyed. The defenders of the steel plant have changed the course of the war, such that the question now is just how much of a humiliation of Russian supposed military might will this be. And there remains up to 1000 Ukrainian fighters, still in the steel works, still tying down Russian resources.
 

Theophilos

Active member
Still pushing the Russian propaganda I see. Careful, even mainstream Russian media has started showing criticism of how the war is going, presumably to prepare the public for the humiliation that is to come.
Virtually everything you say here is not just untrue but a grotesque, distorted, mirror image of the truth. Massive human rights abuses and war crimes have been carried out... by the Russians. Overwhelming evidence for which has been obtained by... Ukrainian forces pushing the hapless and hopeless Russians into retreat.

Putin started this war with the aim of taking the whole of Ukraine, removing the elected government and replacing it with a puppet regime and absorbing the entire Donbas region into Russia. After all this time, and having lost up to a third of his combat troops, western Ukraine including Kyiv is safe, Kharkiv is safe, Odessa is safe, Ukraine forces are able to shell Russian supply lines, in Russia. Putin's ambitions have been reduced to seizing a portion of Eastern Donbas. The "liberated" Mariupol has been destroyed. The defenders of the steel plant have changed the course of the war, such that the question now is just how much of a humiliation of Russian supposed military might will this be. And there remains up to 1000 Ukrainian fighters, still in the steel works, still tying down Russian resources.
Yes, the US is clearly winning the disinformation war. Meanwhile Russia is winning on the battlefield.

The surrender at Azovstal is huge defeat for Kyiv, but I expect that the western media will continue to claim that Ukraine is winning. Any reports to the contrary will be labeled Russian disinformation.
 

rossum

Well-known member
Evacuation to medical facilities under Russian control for the wounded, and prison cells for the Ukranian military

The Azov members should stand trial, unbelievable atrocities, shooting ethnic Russian Ukranian civilians, etc

The western MSM fabricates lies on events in Ukraine, 4 weeks ago they had Ukraine pushing Russia out of Mariupol "Lies", now Russian flags are flying everywhere, a new government is installed, with victory parades in the streets

I agree with your analysis on Austin's call, and yes America and the west is using Ukraine as a bloody pawn for their own means, sad
Thank you for that bulletin from the Kremlin. Obvious propaganda is obvious.

Your bosses really need to tone the propaganda element down. Though I suppose that criticising your bosses might get you 15 months in prison. What is the prison like in Omsk by the way?

Pity about that long piece they wrote about Russia's glorious three day victory over the Ukraine. Oh well, Putin can't win everything.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Yes, the US is clearly winning the disinformation war. Meanwhile Russia is winning on the battlefield.
Lol! That really is a delusional statement. Firstly the US isn't fighting. The Russians are losing because the Ukrainians, armed by many different Western countries, are beating them.

The surrender at Azovstal is huge defeat for Kyiv, but I expect that the western media will continue to claim that Ukraine is winning. Any reports to the contrary will be labeled Russian disinformation.
There are no reports to the contrary, except those coming from Russian troll farms. Whereabouts in Russia do you live?
Something Extremely Interesting Just Happened on Russian TV
 
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Theophilos

Active member
Lol! That really is a delusional statement. Firstly the US isn't fighting. The Russians are losing because the Ukrainians, armed by many different Western countries, are beating them.


There are no reports to the contrary, except those coming from Russian troll farms. Whereabouts in Russia do you live?
Something Extremely Interesting Just Happened on Russian TV
Democrats are saying that the US is "at war" in Ukraine.

Most of the western news reports have been blatant propaganda. In many cases alleged images in the "news" have been from video games, from other conflicts, or from staged events.

Ukrainian government has labeled the surrender in Azovstal an "evacuation". The Russians have "evacuated" the surrendering troops to Russia POW camps and hospitals. Even CNN is admitting this, but the news is not on the front page. They continue to push NATO propaganda about Ukraine winning even as it suffers a major defeat.

  • Russia's defense ministry says over 1,700 Ukrainian soldiers have surrendered at the Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol since May 16, with more than 770 leaving in the last 24 hours. Several hundred more are reportedly still inside.
  • The Red Cross says it has registered hundreds of Ukrainian prisoners of war who have left the plant. The Ukrainian side has not given an update on numbers.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Democrats are saying that the US is "at war" in Ukraine.

Most of the western news reports have been blatant propaganda. In many cases alleged images in the "news" have been from video games, from other conflicts, or from staged events.

Ukrainian government has labeled the surrender in Azovstal an "evacuation". The Russians have "evacuated" the surrendering troops to Russia POW camps and hospitals. Even CNN is admitting this, but the news is not on the front page.


I'm not sure what significance you think any of this has. Plenty of main stream news media have described the fact that hundreds of fighters from the steel works have been taken to Russian camps, while up to a thousand remain. Even if they have all surrendered, they have fulfilled their mission and swung the war in Ukraine's favour. What happens to them now will be interesting, but doesn't matter much in terms of the actual fighting.

As for the images, they abound, wrecked Russian hardware, videos of war crimes as they happened, mass graves seen on satellite images, TV interviews with survivors, etc etc. The best journalists in the world are in the Ukraine, competing with each other to get the best story. Only a Russian would believe it possible to control the media as you claim, because only Russians attempt it.
 

Theophilos

Active member
I'm not sure what significance you think any of this has. Plenty of main stream news media have described the fact that hundreds of fighters from the steel works have been taken to Russian camps, while up to a thousand remain. Even if they have all surrendered, they have fulfilled their mission and swung the war in Ukraine's favour. What happens to them now will be interesting, but doesn't matter much in terms of the actual fighting.

As for the images, they abound, wrecked Russian hardware, videos of war crimes as they happened, mass graves seen on satellite images, TV interviews with survivors, etc etc. The best journalists in the world are in the Ukraine, competing with each other to get the best story. Only a Russian would believe it possible to control the media as you claim, because only Russians attempt it.
Yes, the power of the dark side of the farce is strong in western media. They continue to spin everything as a Ukrainian victory.

The images of destroyed military equipment are always presented as Russian even when an inspection of the images shows they were really Ukrainian. The same for the war dead. Dead Ukrainian soldiers are misidentified as Russian. Dead civilians are always presented as Ukrainians killed by Russians even when they are Russian-speaking Ukrainians killed by Ukrainian paramilitaries.

Very few western journalists ever get anywhere close to the front lines. They just parrot the party line from Kiev and Washington.

I expect the reports will continue to be, "Ukraine is winning. Any reports to the contrary are Russian propaganda."

At some point the narrative will become unsustainable, and it will switch to "the Ukrainian army suddenly collapsed; no one could see that coming".
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Yes, the power of the dark side of the farce is strong in western media. They continue to spin everything as a Ukrainian victory.

The images of destroyed military equipment are always presented as Russian even when an inspection of the images shows they were really Ukrainian. The same for the war dead. Dead Ukrainian soldiers are misidentified as Russian. Dead civilians are always presented as Ukrainians killed by Russians even when they are Russian-speaking Ukrainians killed by Ukrainian paramilitaries.

Very few western journalists ever get anywhere close to the front lines. They just parrot the party line from Kiev and Washington.

I expect the reports will continue to be, "Ukraine is winning. Any reports to the contrary are Russian propaganda."

At some point the narrative will become unsustainable, and it will switch to "the Ukrainian army suddenly collapsed; no one could see that coming".
Exactly the mirror image of what has happened in Russia. From "war, what war?" through "the special. Military operation is proceeding exactly as planned" to "if we continue like this, we are all doomed." Russian commentators on Russian TV think Putin is losing, and you don't? Your loyalty to Putin does you credit.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Yes, the power of the dark side of the farce is strong in western media. They continue to spin everything as a Ukrainian victory.

The images of destroyed military equipment are always presented as Russian even when an inspection of the images shows they were really Ukrainian. The same for the war dead. Dead Ukrainian soldiers are misidentified as Russian. Dead civilians are always presented as Ukrainians killed by Russians even when they are Russian-speaking Ukrainians killed by Ukrainian paramilitaries.

Very few western journalists ever get anywhere close to the front lines. They just parrot the party line from Kiev and Washington.

I expect the reports will continue to be, "Ukraine is winning. Any reports to the contrary are Russian propaganda."

At some point the narrative will become unsustainable, and it will switch to "the Ukrainian army suddenly collapsed; no one could see that coming".
It seems the Ukrainians have perfected the art of "corrosive warfare."

"This strategy of corrosion sees Ukraine attacking the Russians where they are weak, while also using some of their combat power to delay Russian combat forces. British military historian and theorist, Basil Liddell Hart described this as the indirect approach. In his classic book, Strategy, he writes how “effective results in war have rarely been attained unless the approach has had such indirectness as to ensure the opponents’ unreadiness to meet it. This indirectness has usually been physical and always psychological.”
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The Ukrainian consistency in implementing their strategy now sees the Russian army approaching its high watermark in Ukraine. And in corroding the Russians physically, morally, and intellectually from within, the Ukrainians have evolved the military art. Conventional ground and air operations have absorbed special operations forces and information operations into a new, unified whole. What we once understood as separate conventional, unconventional, or information operations are now components of an integrated and indivisible whole.

This is what 21st century warfare looks like. The Ukrainians have proved to be masters of it."
 

Temujin

Well-known member
It seems the Ukrainians have perfected the art of "corrosive warfare."

"This strategy of corrosion sees Ukraine attacking the Russians where they are weak, while also using some of their combat power to delay Russian combat forces. British military historian and theorist, Basil Liddell Hart described this as the indirect approach. In his classic book, Strategy, he writes how “effective results in war have rarely been attained unless the approach has had such indirectness as to ensure the opponents’ unreadiness to meet it. This indirectness has usually been physical and always psychological.”
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The Ukrainian consistency in implementing their strategy now sees the Russian army approaching its high watermark in Ukraine. And in corroding the Russians physically, morally, and intellectually from within, the Ukrainians have evolved the military art. Conventional ground and air operations have absorbed special operations forces and information operations into a new, unified whole. What we once understood as separate conventional, unconventional, or information operations are now components of an integrated and indivisible whole.

This is what 21st century warfare looks like. The Ukrainians have proved to be masters of it."
Interesting. I think what we have seen so far is about 50%the Ukrainians being much better than everyone thought, and 50% the Russians being much worse. In any event, we have gone from a conflict which it looked impossible for Ukraine to win to one it is now impossible for Russia to win. A nasty, long-drawn out attrition Al slaughterhouse in the bread basket of the world, is what we look forward to now. If nothing else, Putin has secured his place in history.
 

inertia

Super Member
And much longer than anyone thought they could, holding down much larger numbers of Russians in the process. I fine illustration of just how difficult fighting in built up areas is for the attacking side.

When the evacuation is complete I am wondering when the counter offensive will begin especially since the region will be free of any Ukrainian forces. Letting the Russians occupy a land bridge to Crimea only favors Putin's expansionary goals.

___
 

Theophilos

Active member
Exactly the mirror image of what has happened in Russia. From "war, what war?" through "the special. Military operation is proceeding exactly as planned" to "if we continue like this, we are all doomed." Russian commentators on Russian TV think Putin is losing, and you don't? Your loyalty to Putin does you credit.
No. What I have seen is a blizzard of b.s. from the western media. Winning the rigged Eurovision contest does not help on the battlefield.

Russian commentators are concerned that the tens of billions in aid going to Ukraine may eventually have an effect on the war. What is more likely is the military aid will go down a black hole of corruption and inefficiency like it did in Afghanistan. The result will be massive profits for arms merchants and more millions lining pockets of corrupt politicians, but little real effect on the outcome of the war. US is working to fight to the last Ukrainian. For more information see:


On the other hand if significant aid actually reaches the front lines, Russia may expand from a special military operation to an actual war. That change would most likely include the objective of regime change in Kiev before aid has much effect.

Eisenhower warned about the military-industrial complex. What is good for Ratheon is not necessarily good for America.
 
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vibise

Well-known member
Yes, the power of the dark side of the farce is strong in western media. They continue to spin everything as a Ukrainian victory.

The images of destroyed military equipment are always presented as Russian even when an inspection of the images shows they were really Ukrainian. The same for the war dead. Dead Ukrainian soldiers are misidentified as Russian. Dead civilians are always presented as Ukrainians killed by Russians even when they are Russian-speaking Ukrainians killed by Ukrainian paramilitaries.

Very few western journalists ever get anywhere close to the front lines. They just parrot the party line from Kiev and Washington.

I expect the reports will continue to be, "Ukraine is winning. Any reports to the contrary are Russian propaganda."

At some point the narrative will become unsustainable, and it will switch to "the Ukrainian army suddenly collapsed; no one could see that coming".
How do you explain the fact that Russia gave up trying to take Kyiv and more recently Kharkiv?

I note you fail to provide links showing destroyed military equipment is Ukrainian, and fail to explain the fact that observers estimate that Russia has lost 1/3 of their fighting force.

It was initially expected that Ukraine would fall within days of the Russian invasion. That this has not happened, and that Russia has retreated from various objectives suggest that the reports we are getting are accurate.
 

vibise

Well-known member
No. What I have seen is a blizzard of b.s. from the western media. Winning the rigged Eurovision contest does not help on the battlefield.

Russian commentators are concerned that the tens of billions in aid going to Ukraine may eventually have an effect on the war. What is more likely is the military aid will go down a black hole of corruption and inefficiency like it did in Afghanistan. The result will be massive profits for arms merchants and more millions lining pockets of corrupt politicians, but little real effect on the outcome of the war. US is working to fight to the last Ukrainian. For more information see:


On the other hand if significant aid actually reaches the front lines, Russia may expand from a special military operation to an actual war. That change would most likely include the objective of regime change in Kiev before aid has much effect.

Eisenhower warned about the military-industrial complex. What is good for Ratheon is not necessarily good for America.
So far, Russia's military has been embarrassed on the world stage. That you think they have not responded by sending in their best troops, arms and tactical experts is unlikely. They clearly don't have what it takes to subdue Ukraine.
 
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