Ukraine Nazi Azov Batallion Surrenders Mariupol Steel Plant

[Temujin]

The stated Russian goal is the partition of Ukraine. The likely outcome will result in Russia annexing Russian-speaking areas in southern and eastern Ukraine from the Romanian border to the current Russian border.

Regime change never was on the official list of Russian objectives, and Putin said it has never been an objective back in March.

Finnish President: Putin's goal in Ukraine is not regime change | CNN

Finland President Sauli Niinistö speaks to CNN's Christiane Amanpour about his talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin and what Putin said that he wants.

edition.cnn.com

Lol! Surely you don't take what Putin says he intends as a guide to what he actually intends? No one can be that naive. His lies are legion.

 

[Theophilos]

Lol! Surely you don't take what Putin says he intends as a guide to what he actually intends? No one can be that naive. His lies are legion.

I have even less trust in mind readers quoted in western media.

Russian military actions have been remarkably consistent with their original stated objectives. The western mind readers arguably helped Putin by exaggerating the threat to Kiev, which caused Ukraine to divert forces from the real battle in Donbass.

 

[Backup]

Yes, the reputation of The New York Times is right up there with Pravda, but only if you are interested in the official party line.

according to right-wingers who continually get burned by the craziest conspiracy blogs imaginable

It's silly to debate sources with you people. I don't believe anyone could be so stupid as not to understand the difference.

Over time, Zero Hedge expanded into non-financial political content,[c] including conspiracy theories and fringe rhetoric[3][28] advancing radical right,[15][29] alt-right,[30][31][32] and pro-Russia positions

The [New York]Times has since won 132 Pulitzer Prizes, the most of any newspaper,[9] and has long been regarded within the industry as a national "newspaper of record".[10

 

[Theophilos]

according to right-wingers who continually get burned by the craziest conspiracy blogs imaginable

It's silly to debate sources with you people. I don't believe anyone could be so stupid as not to understand the difference.

Over time, Zero Hedge expanded into non-financial political content,[c] including conspiracy theories and fringe rhetoric[3][28] advancing radical right,[15][29] alt-right,[30][31][32] and pro-Russia positions

The [New York]Times has since won 132 Pulitzer Prizes, the most of any newspaper,[9] and has long been regarded within the industry as a national "newspaper of record".[10

Yes, unlike most of corporate media, The New York Times did finally admit that the Biden laptop was real. It only took almost a year and half for them to reach that conclusion, which should have been obvious before the 2020 election. Yay NYT!

The NYT Now Admits the Biden Laptop -- Falsely Called "Russian Disinformation" -- is Authentic

The media outlets which spread this lie from ex-CIA officials never retracted their pre-election falsehoods, ones used by Big Tech to censor reporting on the front-runner.

greenwald.substack.com

With the exception of Fox News, corporate media and big tech have been toeing the line to make sure to bury any information that contradicts the official narratives from Washington and Kiev.

Western Dissent from US/NATO Policy on Ukraine is Small, Yet the Censorship Campaign is Extreme

Preventing populations from asking who benefits from a protracted proxy war, and who pays the price, is paramount. A closed propaganda system achieves that.

greenwald.substack.com

Meanwhile, former intel officials are demanding more government censorship over US media in a letter to congress. It is no accident that James Clapper appears as the lead signature on the letter to congress and the Biden-laptop-gag-order letter.

Former Intelligence Officials, Citing Russia, Say Big Tech Monopoly Power is Vital to National Security

When the U.S. security state announces that Big Tech's centralized censorship power must be preserved, we should ask what this reveals about whom this regime serves.

greenwald.substack.com

 

[cjab]

Even if true, it implies/says nothing to discredit the fact that Zerohedge is a known source of Russian propaganda.

So everything that is critical of the US is "Russian propaganda?" Some of the US's fiercest critics vis-a-vis Ukraine are citizens of the USA.

 

[mikeT]

So everything that is critical of the US is "Russian propaganda?"

That's your strawman, and does not represent what I've said here.

Zerohedge is a known source of Russian propaganda. Period. Full stop.

Spin that...

 

[cjab]

That's your strawman, and does not represent what I've said here.

Not a straw man, because your criteria for "propaganda" is in most cases solely based on whether any article critiques the US or is written by Russians.

Zerohedge is a known source of Russian propaganda. Period. Full stop.

Spin that...

So they periodically have contributors from a Russian source? So what? You'd have to prove they were deliberately misstating facts before using the 'propaganda' label. But I don't know enough about it as I haven't read any of the articles. But it seems to me, it's largely who they were written by that's the issue with zerohedge, and that they critique the US.

 

[mikeT]

Not a straw man, because your criteria for "propaganda" is in most cases solely based on whether any article critiques the US or is written by Russians.

Prove it.

You can't, of course, which is why your claim is a straw man.

So they periodically have contributors from a Russian source? So what?

They have contributors who echo Russian State Media narratives.

Every time you echo Russian State Media, you're spreading propaganda. This is an undeniable fact.

People interested in truth do not do such things. People interested in supporting a partisan narrative do.

Which one do you consider yourself?

 

[inertia]

That's your strawman, and does not represent what I've said here.

Zerohedge is a known source of Russian propaganda. Period. Full stop.

Spin that...

"Washington (AP) -- U.S. intelligence officials on Tuesday accused a conservative financial news website with a significant American readership of amplifying Kremlin propaganda and alleged five media outlets targeting Ukrainians have taken direction from Russian spies.

The officials said Zero Hedge, which has 1.2 million Twitter followers, published articles created by Moscow-controlled media that were then shared by outlets and people unaware of their nexus to Russian intelligence. " Bloomberg (2/25/2022) (italics mine)

* * * * * * * * * I* About the amplification process:

From the Rand Corporation (2018): Figure 2.2 on page 13 shows the Zero Hedge reference network as an example of step 3 listed below "that frequently echo the Kremlin line but are not obviously affiliated with Russia."

Step 1.) Manufacturing information. The idea is to produce false and/or misleading news generated by well-known Russian publishing channels, such as Fancy Bear (AKA APT28), RT, Sputnik News, with outlets like True Pundit, and media outlets such as Youtube or Guccifer 2.0.

Step 2.) Use bots and trolls to act as force multipliers for dispersal and intensity gain ( fear-mongering is an example ). World War III is next!

Step 3.) Perpetuate the narrative. This is accomplished through reinforcement using media outlets with statements such as "used with permission" that fall under the category of "useful idiots".

___

 

[Theophilos]

"Washington (AP) -- U.S. intelligence officials on Tuesday accused a conservative financial news website with a significant American readership of amplifying Kremlin propaganda and alleged five media outlets targeting Ukrainians have taken direction from Russian spies.

The officials said Zero Hedge, which has 1.2 million Twitter followers, published articles created by Moscow-controlled media that were then shared by outlets and people unaware of their nexus to Russian intelligence. " Bloomberg (2/25/2022) (italics mine)

* * * * * * * * * I* About the amplification process:

From the Rand Corporation: Figure 2.2 shows the Zero Hedge reference network as an example of step 3 listed below "that frequently echo the Kremlin line but are not obviously affiliated with Russia."

Step 1.) Manufacturing information. The idea is to produce false and/or misleading news generated by well-known Russian publishing channels, such as Fancy Bear (AKA APT28), RT, Sputnik News, with outlets like True Pundit, and media outlets such as Youtube or Guccifer 2.0.

Step 2.) Use bots and trolls to act as force multipliers for dispersal and intensity gain ( fear-mongering is an example ). World War III is next!

Step 3.) Perpetuate the narrative. This is accomplished through reinforcement using media outlets with statements such as "used with permission" that fall under the category of "useful idiots".

___

Yes, when 90+% of the western media is state-controlled and spouting propaganda from Washington, then anything that conflicts with the official narrative is immediately labeled "Russian propaganda". The reports can be entirely accurate, but they will still be labeled "Russian disinformation".

If you doubt that, just look at how former intel operatives coordinated with oligarchs in the media and big tech to kill stories about the Biden laptop. Twitter and Facebook banned links to the New York Post's story. Mainstream media ignored the story or falsely claimed it was "Russian disinformation". A Biden associate came forward to confirm key points about the story, but no one from the mainstream media went to the news conference. Only now are the media admitting that the original New York Post story was true all along.

Similar things are going on now with reporting on Ukraine, which parallels past reporting used to justify wars overseas. US/NATO military actions in Kosovo, Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan have all been justified using information from the US government that later turns out to be false.

Will it help to find out years from now to find out that the people in Washington lied to get NATO in a bloody war Ukraine?

 

[Truth7t7]

quoting ZeroHedge and acting like the New York Times isn't one of the most prestigious and reliable newspapers on the planet is just stupid

New York Times = "Fake News"

 

[inertia]

Yes, when 90+% of the western media is state-controlled

Quick question: Do you reside in the United States? I don't anyone in any state in the country that believes ^this phrase^ you've presented above.

I also can't imagine a time in the future of the United States "when" > 90% of western media is "state-controlled". In the United States, the media is largely privately owned. It's not at all like Soviet-style media in the cold war.

"First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

- Alex Jones (Infowars) is a very good example of out-of-control sensationalist media that the state cannot do anything about. This does not mean that the press cannot be sued.

and spouting propaganda from Washington

See step 1 in my post above. Your phrase above is a good example of it.

, then anything that conflicts with the official narrative

There are too many news outlets paid by their own journalists in the field that provide -their own- perspectives. Another imagined private media company would have a very hard job constructing an official government narrative that must be adhered to by the state - or else - because their narrative would be discovered by other privately held media companies. It's best to let the truth out and corrections prevail as free reporting continues. In China or Russia the concepts of "state-control", and uphold the "official narrative" takes on a completely different paradigm.

I hear that "re-education" camps are all the rage in China. Do the Russians still have a gulag for rest and re-education?

is immediately labeled "Russian propaganda".

Russian propaganda is easy to spot with a little digging.

The reports can be entirely accurate, but they will still be labeled "Russian disinformation".

That's part of the art of propaganda. A little truth here, and even there, but when coupled with a number of just-right and even plausible lies has worked well for a very long time as a manipulation tool. If completely accurate, a story will become history.

Cigarette companies are historically known for their slick propaganda techniques.

... time to go for now...

___

 

[cjab]

Every time you echo Russian State Media, you're spreading propaganda. This is an undeniable fact.

This is an undeniable untruth and is OTT. It is what is known as 'demonization'. It's spinning the lie that your opponent is the devil himself, and that you his opponent is the only source of truth. Seldom is this the case. Often both parties are at fault in some way. Putin may be 'a devil' but the same could be said of the Bidens. It's when both parties are in reality 'devils' that the situation can rapidly spin out of control, like the Hilter and Stalin clash led to the deaths of circa 30million people.

zerohedge takes the attitude that the reader is able to discern truth from falsehood. To a degree it's true. To a degree, it's false. There is clearly a balance to be struck.

How about this widely reported message from Russian State TV:

"Russian state TV pundit dubs Ukraine war ‘rehearsal’ for NATO clash"

Russian state TV pundit dubs Ukraine war ‘rehearsal’ for NATO clash

Alexei Fenenko appeared on “60 Minutes” airing on the Russia 1 channel and raised the prospect of broader clash with the West in the future.

nypost.com

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, when 90+% of the western media is state-controlled and spouting propaganda from Washington, then anything that conflicts with the official narrative is immediately labeled "Russian propaganda". The reports can be entirely accurate, but they will still be labeled "Russian disinformation".

If you doubt that, just look at how former intel operatives coordinated with oligarchs in the media and big tech to kill stories about the Biden laptop. Twitter and Facebook banned links to the New York Post's story. Mainstream media ignored the story or falsely claimed it was "Russian disinformation". A Biden associate came forward to confirm key points about the story, but no one from the mainstream media went to the news conference. Only now are the media admitting that the original New York Post story was true all along.

Similar things are going on now with reporting on Ukraine, which parallels past reporting used to justify wars overseas. US/NATO military actions in Kosovo, Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan have all been justified using information from the US government that later turns out to be false.

Will it help to find out years from now to find out that the people in Washington lied to get NATO in a bloody war Ukraine?

Just checked things out, the mass surrender is Main stream news now with numbers reported between 900-1700 On all channels, Sky Australia, DW Germany, 24 France, ABC USA, etc

Yes the western MSM hides the truth in reporting, with this being 4 days behind the story taking place on Monday

Just let's one see, the western MSM is fake news, and would have put a lid on this surrender if possible, keeping the "Fake News" narrative alive

 

[Truth7t7]

Probably the latter (is my guess). I find the idea of actual employees of Russia working in this forum a bit hard to believe, but it'd make sense if trolls were using the same kinds of tactics - passing along actual propaganda in the process.

Russia openly stated the mass surrender of the Azov in the steel plant, and gave the world video clips of the surrender

You have been in denial of this fact for days, and it's now main stream on the western media, Sky News Australua, DW Germany, 24 France, ABC USA, etc

The propaganda is you and the MSM in denial of truth

 

[Theophilos]

Quick question: Do you reside in the United States? I don't anyone in any state in the country that believes ^this phrase^ you've presented above.

I also can't imagine a time in the future of the United States "when" > 90% of western media is "state-controlled". In the United States, the media is largely privately owned. It's not at all like Soviet-style media in the cold war.

"First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

- Alex Jones (Infowars) is a very good example of out-of-control sensationalist media that the state cannot do anything about. This does not mean that the press cannot be sued.



See step 1 in my post above. Your phrase above is a good example of it.



There are too many news outlets paid by their own journalists in the field that provide -their own- perspectives. Another imagined private media company would have a very hard job constructing an official government narrative that must be adhered to by the state - or else - because their narrative would be discovered by other privately held media companies. It's best to let the truth out and corrections prevail as free reporting continues. In China or Russia the concepts of "state-control", and uphold the "official narrative" takes on a completely different paradigm.

I hear that "re-education" camps are all the rage in China. Do the Russians still have a gulag for rest and re-education?



Russian propaganda is easy to spot with a little digging.



That's part of the art of propaganda. A little truth here, and even there, but when coupled with a number of just-right and even plausible lies has worked well for a very long time as a manipulation tool. If completely accurate, a story will become history.

Cigarette companies are historically known for their slick propaganda techniques.

... time to go for now...

___

Yes, I am from the US, and my Slavic ancestors came from what is now Ukraine. I have had personal interest in the history of Ukraine and its neighbors.

As far as state-controlled media, note that state-controlled does not necessarily mean state-owned. Here is a description of how that works:

Although the constitution provides for freedom of speech, vague laws on extremism grant the authorities great discretion to crack down on any speech, organization, or activity that lacks official support. The government controls, directly or through state-owned companies and friendly business magnates, all of the national television networks and many radio and print outlets, as well as most of the media advertising market. A handful of independent outlets still operate, most of them online and some headquartered abroad. The few that remain in the country struggle to maintain their independence from state interests. . . https://freedomhouse.org/country/russia/freedom-world/2021

That is a description of Putin's Russia, but it applies to the US as well. A handful of multinational companies own 90+% of the news and social media, and they take their orders from elements within the federal government. If you doubt that, just look at how a letter from former intel officials killed the Biden laptop story shortly before the election. Only now are mainstream media starting to admit that the original story was true, and the disinformation was coming from the former US officials, not Russia.

And yes, the US has the First Amendment, but that does not apply to private entities. Instead of outright ownership, the state quietly uses financial incentives and intimidation to control the media.

If you doubt that consider this story from soon after the 2020 election. The CIA awarded a multibillion-dollar contract to Amazon, Microsoft, Google and others. My guess is that is only the tip of the iceberg; most of the business relationships are classified.

CIA awards cloud computing contract worth billions to firms including Amazon, Microsoft, Google

The Central Intelligence Agency has awarded a cloud computing contract said to be worth "billions" to five of America's biggest tech companies.

www.foxbusiness.com

The same tech giants were involved in the orchestrated takedown of Parler a few weeks later:

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2021/01/12/glenn-greenwald-big-tech-knocking-parler-offline-is-a-show-of-monopolistic-force/

Glenn Greenwald lives in Brazil. That is not an accident in my opinion; consider the FBI raid on Project Veritas.

Federal judge orders DOJ to halt data extraction from James O'Keefe's phones following FBI raid

A federal judge has ordered the Department of Justice to stop extracting data from the phones of Project Veritas founder James O'Keefe days after his home was raided by the FBI as part of an investigation into the missing diary belonging to President Biden's daughter, Ashley Biden.

www.foxnews.com

Consider the attempts to intimidate Tucker Carlson:

Tucker Carlson: NSA has been reading my private emails, planned to leak the contents

Tucker Carlson discusses allegations that the NSA has read his private emails, and had planned to leak the contents to the media.

www.foxnews.com

Mob chants threats outside Tucker Carlson’s DC home

A self-described left-wing Antifa group posted a video of activists outside the Washington, D.C., home of Fox News’ Tucker Carlson Wednesday evening, chanting, “Tucker Carlson, we will fight, we know where you sleep at night.”

www.foxnews.com

As Chuck Schumer says "if you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you . . . "

Senator Frank Church warned about the ability of the surveillance state to impose tyranny back in 1975. That was before the internet, social media, email, smart phones, facial recognition, etc. The threat is massively greater today.

 

[Temujin]

Yes, I am from the US, and my Slavic ancestors came from what is now Ukraine. I have had personal interest in the history of Ukraine and its neighbors.

As far as state-controlled media, note that state-controlled does not necessarily mean state-owned. Here is a description of how that works:



That is a description of Putin's Russia, but it applies to the US as well. A handful of multinational companies own 90+% of the news and social media, and they take their orders from elements within the federal government. If you doubt that, just look at how a letter from former intel officials killed the Biden laptop story shortly before the election. Only now are mainstream media starting to admit that the original story was true, and the disinformation was coming from the former US officials, not Russia.

And yes, the US has the First Amendment, but that does not apply to private entities. Instead of outright ownership, the state quietly uses financial incentives and intimidation to control the media.

If you doubt that consider this story from soon after the 2020 election. The CIA awarded a multibillion-dollar contract to Amazon, Microsoft, Google and others. My guess is that is only the tip of the iceberg; most of the business relationships are classified.

CIA awards cloud computing contract worth billions to firms including Amazon, Microsoft, Google

The Central Intelligence Agency has awarded a cloud computing contract said to be worth "billions" to five of America's biggest tech companies.

www.foxbusiness.com

The same tech giants were involved in the orchestrated takedown of Parler a few weeks later:

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2021/01/12/glenn-greenwald-big-tech-knocking-parler-offline-is-a-show-of-monopolistic-force/

Glenn Greenwald lives in Brazil. That is not an accident in my opinion; consider the FBI raid on Project Veritas.

Federal judge orders DOJ to halt data extraction from James O'Keefe's phones following FBI raid

A federal judge has ordered the Department of Justice to stop extracting data from the phones of Project Veritas founder James O'Keefe days after his home was raided by the FBI as part of an investigation into the missing diary belonging to President Biden's daughter, Ashley Biden.

www.foxnews.com

Consider the attempts to intimidate Tucker Carlson:

Tucker Carlson: NSA has been reading my private emails, planned to leak the contents

Tucker Carlson discusses allegations that the NSA has read his private emails, and had planned to leak the contents to the media.

www.foxnews.com

Mob chants threats outside Tucker Carlson’s DC home

A self-described left-wing Antifa group posted a video of activists outside the Washington, D.C., home of Fox News’ Tucker Carlson Wednesday evening, chanting, “Tucker Carlson, we will fight, we know where you sleep at night.”

www.foxnews.com

As Chuck Schumer says "if you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you . . . "

Senator Frank Church warned about the ability of the surveillance state to impose tyranny back in 1975. That was before the internet, social media, email, smart phones, facial recognition, etc. The threat is massively greater today.

You speak as if the only countries in the world were US and Russia. There are journalists from all over the planet in Ukraine, many of them from countries with no reason to love the US, let alone the imaginary diktat of its government. You are allowing your imagination, and the folk memories of your slavic ancestors, to overcome reality.

 

[Theophilos]

You speak as if the only countries in the world were US and Russia. There are journalists from all over the planet in Ukraine, many of them from countries with no reason to love the US, let alone the imaginary diktat of its government. You are allowing your imagination, and the folk memories of your slavic ancestors, to overcome reality.

Yes, the vast majority of the world is not dominated by western media. For example, I find that reporting from India seems much more balanced.

Perhaps that explains why that only NATO countries and a handful of western allies are supporting trade sanctions against Russia.

International sanctions during the Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Temujin]

Yes, the vast majority of the world is not dominated by western media. For example, I find that reporting from India seems much more balanced.

Perhaps that explains why that only NATO countries and a handful of western allies are supporting trade sanctions against Russia.

International sanctions during the Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

India is heavily dependent on trade with Russia. Try again. Your narrative that German, French or British journalists are controlled by the CIA, not just some of them, but all of them, is ludicrous.

 

[Theophilos]

India is heavily dependent on trade with Russia. Try again. Your narrative that German, French or British journalists are controlled by the CIA, not just some of them, but all of them, is ludicrous.

India has good relations with both Russia and NATO countries, and it is still a member of the British Commonwealth.

In Europe each country has its state-owned media, and even private media frequently receive government subsidies.

How government subsidies to the media undermine editorial independence

Media pluralism in Europe is under threat. Far from exhibiting a rich diversity of opinions, content, ownership and structures, Europe’s … Continue reading "How government subsidies to the media undermine editorial independence"

iea.org.uk

In addition, European countries do not have a First Amendment, and they have been more aggressive with outlawing dissent. The governments also work with big tech to censor Russian media.

Germany to prosecute use of ‘Z’ symbol to support Russia’s war

Move raises questions over whether measure can be implemented and draws accusations of tokenism.

www.politico.eu

YouTube bans Russian media outlets across Europe

Squeeze tightens on RT and Sputnik.

www.politico.eu

The CIA is chartered for surveillance and influencing in foreign countries. The idea that it is doing that in Europe should be not surprise. The fact that meddling in US politics is the violation of the original mission.

In addition, MI6 and other surveillance agencies in Europe work closely with their US counterparts. If you doubt that consider that some of the same players that brought the Russia collusion hoax back in 2016 are used as sources for western media about Russia and Ukraine now.

‘Steele dossier’ firm pushed journalist to spread incorrect Trump-Russia theory: witness

Members of the research firm that commissioned the “Steele dossier” met with a journalist to spread an incorrect theory linking Donald Trump and Russia, a meeting participant testified.

nypost.com

Christopher Steele, the spy behind the discredited 'pee tape' Trump dossier, says sources tell him Putin is seriously ill

Christopher Steele said his sources told him Putin is badly ill, which could be affecting his decision-making in Ukraine, Sky News reported.

news.yahoo.com