Ukraine, why are we choosing sides?

Nic

Well-known member
About Putin's imagined NATO threat to Russia, I'll let Norwegian Armed Forces Chairman, Army General Eirik Kristoffersen explain:


Why would Russia decrease the number of troops from NATO borders if NATO was the existential threat Russia fears most?
_____

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Let me put it another way, the West is providing excuses for Russia's aggression. The US should of left NATO years ago.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
I am calling BS on your assertion that China intends to dominate the world. There is nothing in their state policies or state news that even comes close to your description of their goals. IMO, you have been watching too much western news that says pretty much what you just did.

Moreover, historically China has not dominated anyone in modern history, at least for a few hundred years whereas, who has? Imperial Japan, European nations, and even the US. A piece of history downplayed in American history books is our colonization of the Phillipines. So everytime I hear someone say what you just did I see it as projection. The US currently dominates the world and therefore, the assumption by Americans is that everyone else wants to take our place. So we accuse them of the very thing we currently do ourselves. It is called projecting one’s own ambitions onto others even if there is no evidence for doing so.
This is where informing your ignorance would have served you very well before responding to my post. You've got a very nice retort here except for the fact that there is no dispute about the two central facts of my comment. No one seriously denies that the CCP subscribes to the Marxist-Leninist brand of communism, and no one disputes seriously the fact that the objective of Marxist-Leninist communism is world domination. So while your comment might've been just fine were the central facts not so clear it certainly does not do in the present case where the central facts are not in dispute by any serious person. And contrary to your intimation above it is not the objective of the constitutional republic of the United States to dominate the world. Which is not to say that there aren't people within the rogue administrative state in America who would make it so, and work very hard to accomplish that. Call me a wide-eyed optimist but I believe that the republic is not beyond saving.
Sounds like you are repeating the talking points written by someone still living in the Cold War.
How old were you during the Cold War? Were you even born? I'm coming to suspect that you know absolutely nothing about it.
You are merely repeating slogans, cliches, propaganda based on outdated information.
What Xi Jinping said last week is not outdated information.
Too simple and wrong IMO.
Assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I could care less if China overruns Taiwan.
For all I know you don't mind her learning Mandarin Chinese and having your grandchildren dominated by the most racist group of people on planet earth today, which happened to be the Han Chinese. But don't let me dissuade you. Traitors don't tend to be amenable to reason anyway.
My advice to Taiwan would be not to poke the dragon living two hundred miles from your shore.
Taiwan is about the same distance as Cuba is from Florida. It's closer to 100 miles.
To Americans I would say
Are you even an American? Because my interest in your opinion is perilously close to crashing.
that we have no business interfering militarily in Taiwan.
If France had taking that position the United States would not exist.
Trade with them but it is folly to encourage them to poke their much larger neighbor in the eye.
I don't think you appreciate the fact that the Republic of China, Formosa, or Taiwan as we say today, never signed a peace treaty with Red China. In my view, I consider the land part of China to be western Formosa. The people who now inhabit Formosa never surrender to the Leninist-Marxist communists.
And the more the US and/or NATO tries to exert their military will upon China
I'm not aware that NATO is in any way involved in this dispute.
in their own backyard the more convinced China will become that reunification is an absolute necessity. It is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Excuse me do you think you're talking to Karl Marx or Friedrich Engels? It's there a prophecy. When Xi Jinping affirms China's alignment with that ideology he is wittingly or not, admitting the objective of world domination.
China suffered tremendously in the last century at the hands of foreigners, eg., Japan.
Which we delivered them from. You'd think they might have a little bit of gratitude.
Therefore, It is no surprise that they are building a military in order to prevent that from happening again.
Japan has had a constitutional government which does not admit the possibility of a outward pointing military until very recently, and that only in response to Chinese aggression.
We would be stupid and paranoid to assume that their military buildup is for the purpose of invading Kansas and forcing us all to speak Chinese.
At the moment I would be more concerned about the Aleutian Islands, Guam, Hawaii and all of our allies in the South Pacific.
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
This is where informing your ignorance would have served you very well before responding to my post. You've got a very nice retort here except for the fact that there is no dispute about the two central facts of my comment. No one seriously denies that the CCP subscribes to the Marxist-Leninist brand of communism, and no one disputes seriously the fact that the objective of Marxist-Leninist communism is world domination. So while your comment might've been just fine were the central facts not so clear it certainly does not do in the present case where the central facts are not in dispute by any serious person. And contrary to your intimation above it is not the objective of the constitutional republic of the United States to dominate the world. Which is not to say that there aren't people within the rogue administrative state in America who would make it so, and work very hard to accomplish that. Call me a wide-eyed optimist but I believe that the republic is not beyond saving.

How old were you during the Cold War? Were you even born? I'm coming to suspect that you know absolutely nothing about it.

What Xi Jinping said last week is not outdated information.

Assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

For all I know you don't mind her learning Mandarin Chinese and having your grandchildren dominated by the most racist group of people on planet earth today, which happened to be the Han Chinese. But don't let me dissuade you. Traitors don't tend to be amenable to reason anyway.

Taiwan is about the same distance as Cuba is from Florida. It's closer to 100 miles.

Are you even an American? Because my interest in your opinion is perilously close to crashing.

If France had taking that position the United States would not exist.

I don't think you appreciate the fact that the Republic of China, Formosa, or Taiwan as we say today, never signed a peace treaty with Red China. In my view, I consider the land part of China to be western Formosa. The people who now inhabit Formosa never surrender to the Leninist-Marxist communists.

I'm not aware that NATO is in any way involved in this dispute.

Excuse me do you think you're talking to Karl Marx or Friedrich Engels? It's there a prophecy. When Xi Jinping affirms China's alignment with that ideology he is wittingly or not, admitting the objective of world domination.

Which we delivered them from. You'd think they might have a little bit of gratitude.

Japan has had a constitutional government which does not admit the possibility of a outward pointing military until very recently, and that only in response to Chinese aggression.

At the moment I would be more concerned about the Aleutian Islands, Guam, Hawaii and all of our allies in the South Pacific.
95% of your response is ad hominem or rhetoric. Not one coherent argument for anything. Just reactionary opinions based on a cold war mentality.

I base my opinions on evidence and reason and I see no evidence that the Chinese government wants to dominate the world. Instead, their words and actions seek a multipolar world. But I concede that they fully intend to return Taiwan to the control of chinese mainland as it was before Japan stripped it from them. If the US interferes militarily as we already are by arming them, training them, and prepositioning military assets in the region to support them then a chinese-Us/NATO war is a self fulfilling prophecy. IOW, by our provocations and interference into an internal matter between two culturally, historically united people, torn apart by foreign powers, then we are actually ensuring the outcome we should be trying to avoid, that is war with china.

I am trying to look at the situation objectively and avoid wasting blood and treasury on yet another foreign war that we will lose. We lost in vietnam, we lost in Afghanistan, we destroyed Iraq without just cause (they never had WMD), we have not learned from our mistakes that some wars are unwinnable. The cost to impose our will on others is sometimes too high and a China/US war is going to be yet another one of those lessons. Much blood and treasury will be spent fighting china and in the end after much suffering Taiwan will still end up as part of China. and we will have to make peace with China because we are never going to conquer 1.5 billion people who will hate us at that point,
 
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Thistle

Well-known member
95% of your response is ad hominem or rhetoric.
100% of my post was pure substance, and it's quite clear that you don't intend to respond to the substantive facts that comprise the totality of my post but intend rather to do the very thing that you falsely allege I've done. If I were defending arguments as weak as yours I can see the attraction of taking the cowardly road. Except I'm not a coward.
Not one coherent argument for anything.
If you're trying to prove that you're delusional, you're certainly going the right way.
Just reactionary opinions based on a cold war mentality.
Speaking of dodging substantive questions, were you alive during the Cold War yes or no? Because you really appear not to know anything that you couldn't have gleaned from Internet posts last week.
I base my opinions on evidence and reason
Two problems with that suggestion. First, you don't appear to know any of the facts and second I can't see that you're applying any reason to what you assert.
and I see no evidence that the Chinese government wants to dominate the world.
Get in line! From the time of Richard Nixon going to China until very recently nobody saw any evidence that China was a committed Marxist-Leninist regime that was building its economic and subsequently military power for purposes of world domination consistent with Marxist-Leninist doctrine. Your self-imposed blindness is the problem. Most people who benefit from this self imposed blindness are making a ton of money from China, how much are you getting?
Instead, their words and actions seek a multipolar world.
What are you? The last man on the observation squad? We live in a multipolar world. The unipolar moment has come and gone, and if there was ever any mistake about that, take a look and see how things are going in Ukraine.
But I concede that they fully intend to return Taiwan to the control of chinese mainland as it was before Japan stripped it from them.
I think you're really confused about the meaning of "they" as you've used it above. In World War II the allies liberated the Republic of China. The Republic of China still exists we call it Taiwan. The invaders are what we call The Peoples Republic of China.
If the US interferes militarily as we already are by arming them, training them, and prepositioning military assets in the region
Excuse me. We've had military assets in the region for 100 years. We are reconfiguring and repositioning military assets that have been there longer than anybody alive can remember.
to support them then a chinese-Us/NATO war is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Where are you getting this idea that NATO is involved in defending the first island chain west of China? Are you confusing NATO with the Five Eyes? And of course there is an alliance interested in the containment of China by parties also including India.
IOW, by our provocations and interference into an internal matter between two culturally, historically united people, torn apart by foreign powers, then we are actually ensuring the outcome we should be trying to avoid, that is war with china.
The communist overthrow of the Republic of China was not caused by American interference.
I am trying to look at the situation objectively
Which would be helped immeasurably by familiarizing yourself with the facts.
and avoid wasting blood and treasury on yet another foreign war that we will lose.
Preventing the invasion of Taiwan it means projecting power which cannot exclude the possibility that we wind up in a war. I am very interested in not fighting a war over Taiwan but the road you seem to be pointing toward guarantees it's fall. That is not peace through strength, that's capitulation.
We lost in vietnam, we lost in Afghanistan, we destroyed Iraq without just cause (they never had WMD), we have not learned from our mistakes that some wars are unwinnable.
This is not a war. And playing a strong hand may prevent it from ever becoming one. There has never been a time where are Ukraine and Russia both Slavic states with a long history together have not been in close orbit with one another. By sharp contrast the Republic of China and The Peoples Republic of China have been at sharp odds ever since the communist revolution. These are not analogous situations in any way, shape or form. In fact it's not too much to say that these are absolute opposite scenarios. A comparison to Taiwan was simply a strategy to sell a war in Ukraine to the US people and strategy makers.
The cost to impose our will on others is sometimes too high and a China/US war is going to be yet another one of those lessons.
You remind me of all of my friends on the left to assure me that I'm on the wrong side of history because apparently they know the future. Here's a newsflash, neither you nor they know the future. But we can certainly imagine a policy that would very likely lead to the disappearance of the Republic of China, and the certain rise of the PRC as a world dominating force, and that's the one you are advocating. That is very much between you and your moral judgment I've come to a different conclusion.
Much blood and treasury will be spent fighting china and in the end after much suffering Taiwan will still end up as part of China. and we will have to make peace with China because we are never going to conquer 1.5 billion people who will hate us at that point,
China is on the verge of a population collapse. They have been lying about the number of Chinese in China for more than a decade now, and it's overstated by many hundreds of millions of people. In all likelihood the most populous country on earth is India not China.

The Chinese army is a basket case operationally and it is not clear to me that they could coordinate a joint forces military effort in the immediate offing. However, if you walk away from Taiwan the relative size could cause Taiwan to fall. I hasten to add, the Chinese are correcting their deficiencies militarily at a fairly rapid rate.

Because of China's population collapse, and their current military operational impairment, the United States needs to only stand by Taiwan for another 10 or 20 years in order for this window of opportunity to close on China. If on the other hand, they take Taiwan and gain the benefit of their fastest computer chips combined with military AI, then the road ahead is quite different . . . its world domination.
 
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Nic

Well-known member
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100% of my post was pure substance, and it's quite clear that you don't intend to respond to the substantive facts that comprise the totality of my post but intend rather to do the very thing that you falsely allege I've done. If I were defending arguments as weak as yours I can see the attraction of taking the cowardly road. Except I'm not a coward.

If you're trying to prove that you're delusional, you're certainly going the right way.

Speaking of dodging substantive questions, were you alive during the Cold War yes or no? Because you really appear not to know anything that you couldn't have gleaned from Internet posts last week.

Two problems with that suggestion. First, you don't appear to know any of the facts and second I can't see that you're applying any reason to what you assert.

Get in line! From the time of Richard Nixon going to China until very recently nobody saw any evidence that China was a committed Marxist-Leninist regime that was building its economic and subsequently military power for purposes of world domination consistent with Marxist-Leninist doctrine. Your self-imposed blindness is the problem. Most people who benefit from this self imposed blindness are making a ton of money from China, how much are you getting?

What are you? The last man on the observation squad? We live in a multipolar world. The unipolar moment has come and gone, and if there was ever any mistake about that, take a look and see how things are going in Ukraine.

I think you're really confused about the meaning of "they" as you've used it above. In World War II the allies liberated the Republic of China. The Republic of China still exists we call it Taiwan. The invaders are what we call The Peoples Republic of China.

Excuse me. We've had military assets in the region for 100 years. We are reconfiguring and repositioning military assets that have been there longer than anybody alive can remember.

Where are you getting this idea that NATO is involved in defending the first island chain west of China? Are you confusing NATO with the Five Eyes? And of course there is an alliance interested in the containment of China by parties also including India.

The communist overthrow of the Republic of China was not caused by American interference.

Which would be helped immeasurably by familiarizing yourself with the facts.

Preventing the invasion of Taiwan it means projecting power which cannot exclude the possibility that we wind up in a war. I am very interested in not fighting a war over Taiwan but the road you seem to be pointing toward guarantees it's fall. That is not peace through strength, that's capitulation.

This is not a war. And playing a strong hand may prevent it from ever becoming one. There has never been a time where are Ukraine and Russia both Slavic states with a long history together have not been in close orbit with one another. By sharp contrast the Republic of China and The Peoples Republic of China have been at sharp odds ever since the communist revolution. These are not analogous situations in any way, shape or form. In fact it's not too much to say that these are absolute opposite scenarios. A comparison to Taiwan was simply a strategy to sell a war in Ukraine to US people and strategy makers.

You remind me of all of my friends on the left to assure me that I'm on the wrong side of history because apparently they know the future. Here's a newsflash, neither you nor they know the future. But we can certainly imagine a policy that would very likely lead to the disappearance of the Republic of China, and the certain rise of the PRC as a world dominating force, and that's the one you are advocating. That is very much between you and your moral judgment I've come to a different conclusion.

China is on the verge of a population collapse. They have been lying about the number of Chinese in China for more than a decade now, and it's overstated by many hundreds of millions of people. In all likelihood the most populous country on earth is India not China.

The Chinese army is a basket case operationally and it is not clear to me that they could coordinate a joint forces military effort in the immediate offing. However, if you walk away from Taiwan the relative size could cause Taiwan to fall. I hasten to add, the Chinese are correcting their deficiencies militarily at a fairly rapid rate.

Because of China's population collapse, and their current military operational impairment, the United States needs to only stand by Taiwan for another 10 or 20 years in order for this window of opportunity to close on China. If on the other hand, they take Taiwan and gain the benefit of their fastest computer chips combined with military AI, then the road ahead is quite different . . . its world domination.
Thanks for your responses here.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
.

Thanks for your responses here.
One of the most important reasons to be upset about our insane policy in Ukraine is that it distracts from a real problem and the PRC/Taiwan dilemma is a real problem.
 
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Nic

Well-known member
I think we are wrong. Putin wanted to join NATO, Clinton said no. Minsk Agreement has been repeatedly violated by the west. Essentially threatening Putin's Russia. If anything this administration as brain-dead as it seems by the top two representatives as acting custodians in charge, have escalated the situation. Why did we sit on our laurels when Crimea was captured? Why did we send Britain over to Zelenski to walk away from the peace accord between Russia and Ukraine? This isn't about democracy. Vanguard, Black Rock and JP Morgan get to rebuild Ukraine. It reeks of Cheney and Haliburton. I no more endorse this activity from either side than I do the terror state of Israel against the Jordanians known as Palestinians.

China's collapse is coming for their lack of replacement population. India will be tomorrow's China.
I retract my recent terroristic views of Israel.

A little history goes a long way. I apologize to the Jewish community and those who have stood by Judaism.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
I retract my recent terroristic views of Israel.

A little history goes a long way. I apologize to the Jewish community and those who have stood by Judaism.
Judaism is not Israel. Israelis don't represent all Jews, and many have been terrorists in every sense of the word in the past. Menachem Begin is one example. Mossad have routinely practiced torture and the perpetual failure to control hard line Zionists has heaped fuel on the fire of the conflict. Just because one side commits atrocities doesn't absolve the other side from their atrocities. Israel have killed and will continue to kill far more innocent children, women and old men that Hamas. Neither side deserves either praise nor apology until they are able to apologize to each other.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Judaism is not Israel. Israelis don't represent all Jews, and many have been terrorists in every sense of the word in the past. Menachem Begin is one example. Mossad have routinely practiced torture and the perpetual failure to control hard line Zionists has heaped fuel on the fire of the conflict. Just because one side commits atrocities doesn't absolve the other side from their atrocities. Israel have killed and will continue to kill far more innocent children, women and old men that Hamas. Neither side deserves either praise nor apology until they are able to apologize to each other.
Pretty lame for you to equivocate between Hams today and Israel today. Then to refer to alleged terror by Israel more than fifty years ago in order to condemn them today is weak. It shows that you sympathize with terrorists today. Why am I not surprised given that you boast frequently about killing babies in another forum. Your conscience is seared, you have no humanity left.

At least Nic retracted his mischaracterization of Israel whereas you jumped in feet first to take up his position.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Pretty lame for you to equivocate between Hams today and Israel today. Then to refer to alleged terror by Israel more than fifty years ago in order to condemn them today is weak. It shows that you sympathize with terrorists today. Why am I not surprised given that you boast frequently about killing babies in another forum. Your conscience is seared, you have no humanity left.

At least Nic retracted his mischaracterization of Israel whereas you jumped in feet first to take up his position.
You are talking through your hat, to put it politely. I have spent half my adult life fighting terrorists and studying the origins of terrorism. The actions of Israel fifty years ago and since is why we have Hamas. We should condemn Hamas for murdering innocent people, despite the sense of grievance that motivates them. We should also condemn Israel for the needless killing of innocent people, despite the sense of grievance that motivates them. If Israeli politicians had behaved differently, we would have no Hamas. If Hamas had behaved differently, we would have no starvation in Gaza. Anyone who can only praise one side while condemning the other is wrong.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
You are talking through your hat, to put it politely. I have spent half my adult life fighting terrorists and studying the origins of terrorism. The actions of Israel fifty years ago and since is why we have Hamas. We should condemn Hamas for murdering innocent people, despite the sense of grievance that motivates them. We should also condemn Israel for the needless killing of innocent people, despite the sense of grievance that motivates them. If Israeli politicians had behaved differently, we would have no Hamas. If Hamas had behaved differently, we would have no starvation in Gaza. Anyone who can only praise one side while condemning the other is wrong.
Still equivocating between terrorists who kidnap babies and elderly people to hold as hostages (if they do not behead them or burn them first) in a war they can never win, —versus a nation state defending their right to exist (which the death cult that you side with continues to deny them). You are a brain washed terrorist sympathizer and probably anti-semitic as well. Oh!, and a proud baby killer as confirmed by your numerous posts. Do us all a favor, pick up arms and move to Gaza to defend your bros!
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Still equivocating between terrorists who kidnap babies and elderly people to hold as hostages (if they do not behead them or burn them first) in a war they can never win, —versus a nation state defending their right to exist (which the death cult that you side with continues to deny them). You are a brain washed terrorist sympathizer and probably anti-semitic as well. Oh!, and a proud baby killer as confirmed by your numerous posts.
The entire territory of Gaza and it's two million inhabitants are hostages held by Israel. Don't equivocate. Starving old women and children is no better than kidnapping old women and children. Honestly, can't you see the bias in your point of view? I know that there are many fewer Palestinian voters in the US than there are Jewish voters, so it's not surprising that there's an inherent bias, but really, wake up. Compare and contrast the position taken by Americans on terrorist/freedom fighters in Israel/ Palestine, and terrorist/freedom fighters in Ireland/Northern Ireland. Hypocrisy much?
 

docphin5

Well-known member
The entire territory of Gaza and it's two million inhabitants are hostages held by Israel. Don't equivocate. Starving old women and children is no better than kidnapping old women and children. Honestly, can't you see the bias in your point of view? I know that there are many fewer Palestinian voters in the US than there are Jewish voters, so it's not surprising that there's an inherent bias, but really, wake up. Compare and contrast the position taken by Americans on terrorist/freedom fighters in Israel/ Palestine, and terrorist/freedom fighters in Ireland/Northern Ireland. Hypocrisy much?
The death cult reigning in Gaza deny the right for their neighbor to exist. If you did not have your head so far up your butt you would recognize that such a policy is working against their interests. I have no doubt if the death cult could ever start loving their own children more than they hate Israel then Israel could be their neighbor. But instead the death cult has people like you, Iran, and Hezbollah cheering them on.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
The death cult reigning in Gaza deny the right for their neighbor to exist. If you did not have your head so far up your butt you would recognize that such a policy is working against their interests. I have no doubt if the death cult could ever start loving their own children more than they hate Israel then Israel could be their neighbor. But instead the death cult has people like you, Iran, and Hezbollah cheering them on.
If you can find a single post where I cheer on Hamas, I won't call you a liar.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
If you can find a single post where I cheer on Hamas, I won't call you a liar.
You equivocate between nation Israel’s right to defend their babies and elderly from being beheaded and Hamas’ ultimate, explicit goal to exterminate their neighbor. That makes you a terrorist sympathizer.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
You equivocate between nation Israel’s right to defend their babies and elderly from being beheaded and Hamas’ ultimate, explicit goal to exterminate their neighbor. That makes you a terrorist sympathizer.
No, it doesn't. This is a very complicated picture and you are producing a colour by numbers cartoon version, with only two colours, black and white. Terrorism is a form of asymmetric conflict, whereby the weaker side uses unacceptable means to try to even the odds. The only way to solve such a conflict in the long term is to even the odds in an acceptable manner, or at the very least offer some hope of that happening. Israel by it's policy on settlements has done the opposite of that. Understanding the causes of terrorism is not to excuse it or support it. Refusing to consider the causes of terrorism is to perpetuate it. Hamas is totally and unequivocally guilty here. But successive Israeli, and it has to be said, American governments are guilty of perpetuating the circumstances that allow such a thing as Hamas to arise. If you create a swamp in your back yard, you have some responsibility for the mosquitoes that give you malaria.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Ukraine, why are we choosing sides?

Arms production is perceived to be good business and putting nuclear warheads on Russia's doorstep perceived to be a good goal.

And its easy to get the masses to choose sides. Just tell them which side is "the good guys." They'll go right ahead and pick that one because most of them are complete idiots who can't think for themselves.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Arms production is perceived to be good business and putting nuclear warheads on Russia's doorstep perceived to be a good goal.

And its easy to get the masses to choose sides. Just tell them which side is "the good guys." They'll go right ahead and pick that one because most of them are complete idiots who can't think for themselves.
If you say so. We didn't think it was a good idea for Cuba for some reason.
 
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