Unconditional election unto damnation.

how does the "bondage of the will" negate the reality of free will?
I reject the premise of your question. You have yet to prove man has a "free will."

Can you explain from Romans 6 what you are seeing?
Man is a slave, either to sin, or to righteousness vv16 and following.

Also, it's no skin off my nose for you to adopt the position that YOU have a free will. My contention is, I've never seen it adequately proven. The citations and reasoning offefed by you and @fltom are acontextual and feeble, IMO

The readers will decide the issue for themselves.
 
Keep in mind that the context of fltom's verses never include God as the reference point for freedom...

We all believe we are free from our neighbors and other created things.

His verses can not prove "freedom" from God.

...
perhaps you and Tom have different definitions of the concept of free will?
Have you tried to define the concept for the sake of discussion?
 
Give it up Theo

And if I don't "give it up", you're going to continue to vomit up your proof-texts ten thousand more times?

You're the one who doesn't understand Scripture.
You think I'm the one "denying" Scripture.
Neither one of us is going to change the other's mind.
So it's a waste of time to go back and forth ten million times.
At least I think so, since I'm an adult.

BDAG refutes you

ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (Soph., Thu.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo) voluntary, as a volunteer κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14 (Num 15:3 καθʼ ἑκούσιον; Thu. 8, 27, 3 καθʼ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion, cf. Plut., Mor. 446E). Of apostates MPol 4. M-M.*

That simply means uncoerced.
It does not have a built-in meaning of "libertarian, autonomous, contra-causal free will".
 
You're denying the context of the text.

Slave and free are antonyms
Only when they reference the same thing

One can be a slave to one thing but free from another

And the fact is you are denying translations, lexicons and dictionaries as well

Philemon 14 (NASB95) — 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (Soph., Thu.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo) voluntary, as a volunteer κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14 (Num 15:3 καθʼ ἑκούσιον; Thu. 8, 27, 3 καθʼ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion, cf. Plut., Mor. 446E). Of apostates MPol 4. M-M.*

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 243.

Philemon 14 (KJV 1900) — 14 but without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

free will
[ˌfrē ˈwil]

NOUN
  1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
    synonyms:
    volition · independence · self-determination · self-sufficiency · autonomy · spontaneity · freedom · liberty · voluntarily · willingly · readily · freely · spontaneously · without reluctance · without being forced · without being asked · without being encouraged · of one's own accord · of one's own volition · of one's own choosing · by one's own preference


It doesn't matter to me what you posit. What matters to me is what scripture says, and the context in which scripture says what says. That doesn't matter to you, does it?


Meaningless word salad


Already corrected you on that, HERE.
If you cared what scripture states then you would have to affirm the existence of free will

and argue only over what are its limitations
 
I reject the premise of your question. You have yet to prove man has a "free will."


Man is a slave, either to sin, or to righteousness vv16 and following.

Also, it's no skin off my nose for you to adopt the position that YOU have a free will. My contention is, I've never seen it adequately proven. The citations and reasoning offefed by you and @fltom are acontextual and feeble, IMO

The readers will decide the issue for themselves.
You sent me to verse 16, that verse explains what is the result of YOU presenting yourself as a slave. That is an expression of free will. The result of what you chose to do is a bondage, But it was your choice
 
Man is a slave, either to sin, or to righteousness vv16 and following.

I really don't get the lack of charity from supposed "Christians".

We have:
- the "slaves to sin" passages;
- the "dead in sin" passages;
- the "inability" passages;

And all they have is one proof-text about lack of coercion, and a bunch of out-of-context passages about sacrifices.

And they can't even be charitable enough to say, "Okay, I see why you believe that, I just disagree".

Nope, it's "you reject the Bible if you don't agree!",
or "You're not a Christian if you don't agree!"
 
You sent me to verse 16, that verse explains what is the result of YOU presenting yourself as a slave. That is an expression of free will.

How is that "an expression of free will"?!

It does NOT say, "If you CHOOSE to present yourself as a slave".

Look, I present myself as short.
But that was NOT determined by my will.

So how is presenting yourself "an expression of free will", unless you are simply ASSUMING "free will" in the first place?
 
And if I don't "give it up", you're going to continue to vomit up your proof-texts ten thousand more times?

You're the one who doesn't understand Scripture.
You think I'm the one "denying" Scripture.
Neither one of us is going to change the other's mind.
So it's a waste of time to go back and forth ten million times.
At least I think so, since I'm an adult.



That simply means uncoerced.
It does not have a built-in meaning of "libertarian, autonomous, contra-causal free will".
You have been refuted by translations, lexicons and dictionaries as well

translations - translate free will

Greek lexicons - give free will as a meaning

Dictionaries all give as synonyms of free will what appears in all other translations

Why does an "adult" deny the evidence before his own eyes
 
Nope.... You have.

But adults end stalemates with "Let's agree to disagree", rather than childish taunts and boasts.



I don't know... Why DO you deny all the evidence against your view?
All this supports me

Philemon 14 (NASB95) — 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (Soph., Thu.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo) voluntary, as a volunteer κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14 (Num 15:3 καθʼ ἑκούσιον; Thu. 8, 27, 3 καθʼ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion, cf. Plut., Mor. 446E). Of apostates MPol 4. M-M.*

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 243.

Philemon 14 (KJV 1900) — 14 but without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

free will
[ˌfrē ˈwil]

NOUN
  1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
    synonyms:
    volition · independence · self-determination · self-sufficiency · autonomy · spontaneity · freedom · liberty · voluntarily · willingly · readily · freely · spontaneously · without reluctance · without being forced · without being asked · without being encouraged · of one's own accord · of one's own volition · of one's own choosing · by one's own preference

you just deny them
 
How is that "an expression of free will"?!

It does NOT say, "If you CHOOSE to present yourself as a slave".

Look, I present myself as short.
But that was NOT determined by my will.

So how is presenting yourself "an expression of free will", unless you are simply ASSUMING "free will" in the first place?
Then what does it mean to present yourself to what you choose? And in context verse 13 reiterates the choice by telling us to stop presenting ourselves to the wrong choice. The passage speaks of both the ability to choose to do it, and choose not to. The bondage spoken of is the result of what we choose. The choice itsself was not the product of bondage
 
All this supports me

Philemon 14 (NASB95) — 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (Soph., Thu.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo) voluntary, as a volunteer κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14 (Num 15:3 καθʼ ἑκούσιον; Thu. 8, 27, 3 καθʼ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion, cf. Plut., Mor. 446E). Of apostates MPol 4. M-M.*

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 243.

Philemon 14 (KJV 1900) — 14 but without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

free will
[ˌfrē ˈwil]

NOUN
  1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
    synonyms:
    volition · independence · self-determination · self-sufficiency · autonomy · spontaneity · freedom · liberty · voluntarily · willingly · readily · freely · spontaneously · without reluctance · without being forced · without being asked · without being encouraged · of one's own accord · of one's own volition · of one's own choosing · by one's own preference

you just deny them

You can make an argument.
Goodie for you.
I simply believe it is a very poor and bankrupt argument.
'
Would you prefer I shut off my brain, have a frontal lobotomy, and blindly accept everything you teach? Sorry, but it ain't gonna happen.

And vomiting your same posts to me 10,000 times is simply going to convince me you have NOTHING of value to contribute.
 
You can make an argument.
Goodie for you.
I simply believe it is a very poor and bankrupt argument.
'
Would you prefer I shut off my brain, have a frontal lobotomy, and blindly accept everything you teach? Sorry, but it ain't gonna happen.

And vomiting your same posts to me 10,000 times is simply going to convince me you have NOTHING of value to contribute.

You still cannot make these go away

Philemon 14 (NASB95) — 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (Soph., Thu.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo) voluntary, as a volunteer κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14 (Num 15:3 καθʼ ἑκούσιον; Thu. 8, 27, 3 καθʼ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion, cf. Plut., Mor. 446E). Of apostates MPol 4. M-M.*

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 243.

Philemon 14 (KJV 1900) — 14 but without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

free will
[ˌfrē ˈwil]

NOUN
  1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
    synonyms:
    volition · independence · self-determination · self-sufficiency · autonomy · spontaneity · freedom · liberty · voluntarily · willingly · readily · freely · spontaneously · without reluctance · without being forced · without being asked · without being encouraged · of one's own accord · of one's own volition · of one's own choosing · by one's own preference
 
Then what does it mean to present yourself to what you choose?

Where does the text say "choose"?
Can you quote it for me?


And in context verse 13 reiterates the choice

What "choice"?
Where does it mention "choice"?

by telling us to stop presenting ourselves to the wrong choice.

Where does it say "stop presenting ourselves"?
Where does it say anything about "wrong choice"?

Do you know what eisegesis is?

The passage speaks of both the ability to choose to do it, and choose not to.

Really?!
What Bible translation are YOU using?
Where do you see "ability to choose" anywhere in the passage?!

The bondage spoken of is the result of what we choose. The choice itsself was not the product of bondage

Where does it say "the bondage is the result of what we choose"?!?!?!!?!??!?!!

Rom. 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,3 you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

Rom. 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. (ESV)


It doesn't say we "chose to be free from sin".
It says that we WERE SET FREE (passive voice), from sin.
Someone SET US free. We didn't "choose" to be free.
And that person who set us free was God, hence, "Thanks be to God" (v.17).

There's no mention of "choose".
There's no mention of "choice".
There's no mention of "ability to choose".
There's no mention of "wrong choice".
 
You still cannot make these go away

I don't have to.
I like those verses.
I simply don't misinterpret them like you do.
Now please stop harassing me.

This discussion is going NOWHERE, and all you're doing is repeating yourself.
 
I think the issue is not about explaining your concepts, but that some posters are too unreasonable to let that happen.
It was your guy who was uninterested

I pointed out that a soft libertarian free will has limitations

but you guys seem to not be interested
 
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