Unconditional election unto damnation.

I don't have to.
I like those verses.
I simply don't misinterpret them like you do.
Now please stop harassing me.

This discussion is going NOWHERE, and all you're doing is repeating yourself.
Sorry posting my evidence is not harrassing you

Philemon 14 (NASB95) — 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (Soph., Thu.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo) voluntary, as a volunteer κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14 (Num 15:3 καθʼ ἑκούσιον; Thu. 8, 27, 3 καθʼ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion, cf. Plut., Mor. 446E). Of apostates MPol 4. M-M.*

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 243.

Philemon 14 (KJV 1900) — 14 but without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

free will
[ˌfrē ˈwil]

NOUN
  1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
    synonyms:
    volition · independence · self-determination · self-sufficiency · autonomy · spontaneity · freedom · liberty · voluntarily · willingly · readily · freely · spontaneously · without reluctance · without being forced · without being asked · without being encouraged · of one's own accord · of one's own volition · of one's own choosing · by one's own preference
it seems to me you do not want it to go anywhere
 
Where does the text say "choose"?
Can you quote it for me?




What "choice"?
Where does it mention "choice"?



Where does it say "stop presenting ourselves"?
Where does it say anything about "wrong choice"?

Do you know what eisegesis is?



Really?!
What Bible translation are YOU using?
Where do you see "ability to choose" anywhere in the passage?!



Where does it say "the bondage is the result of what we choose"?!?!?!!?!??!?!!

Rom. 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,3 you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

Rom. 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. (ESV)


It doesn't say we "chose to be free from sin".
It says that we WERE SET FREE (passive voice), from sin.
Someone SET US free. We didn't "choose" to be free.
And that person who set us free was God, hence, "Thanks be to God" (v.17).

There's no mention of "choose".
There's no mention of "choice".
There's no mention of "ability to choose".
There's no mention of "wrong choice".
the phrase "do not go on presenting" yourself, is about using your will to decide what you will do.
Your post seems to deny that the passage uses those words.
 
the phrase "do not go on presenting" yourself, is about using your will to decide what you will do.
Your post seems to deny that the passage uses those words.

It doesn't say "do not go on presenting yourself".
Quote the VERSE.

I quoted the entire passage, and the phrase, "do not go on presenting yourself" was NOWHERE to be found.
 
You sent me to verse 16, that verse explains what is the result of YOU presenting yourself as a slave. That is an expression of free will. The result of what you chose to do is a bondage, But it was your choice
First of all, are you a Christian?

Second of all, I've spent a lit of time on this subject today, and I have other things to attend to, so I'm not interested in getting into the weeds with you over this.

Present me with a clear scriptural articilation asserting the freedom of man's will.
 
perhaps you and Tom have different definitions of the concept of free will?
Have you tried to define the concept for the sake of discussion?
Indeed he as another resist the idea of defining a libertarian free will

I have posted this previously to no avail


The Five Tenets of Soft Libertarian free will

Ultimate responsibility (UR) Ultimate responsibility indicates the ultimate
origin of decisions.

Agent causation (AC) A person is the source and origin of his choices.

The principle of alternative possibilities (AP)
At crucial times, the ability to choose or refrain from choosing is genuinely available.

The reality of will-setting moments
A person does not always have the ability to choose to the contrary. Certain free choices result in the loss of freedom.

The distinction between freedom of responsibility and freedom of integrity

The Bible presents freedom as a permission (the freedom of responsibility) and as a power (the
freedom of integrity).

From Salvation and sovereignty Kenneth Keathley
 
Then what does it mean to present yourself to what you choose? And in context verse 13 reiterates the choice by telling us to stop presenting ourselves to the wrong choice. The passage speaks of both the ability to choose to do it, and choose not to. The bondage spoken of is the result of what we choose. The choice itsself was not the product of bondage
The major issue of the "free will" argument is whether or not man has the ability to repent and believe in God by himself.
 
The major issue of the "free will" argument is whether or not man has the ability to repent and believe in God by himself.
No the major issue of free will is given God's initiative can man believe and then be regenerated and saved

Scripture supports a positive answer to that question

Regeneration is the impartation of life which is preceded by faith/repentance

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. It is through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
 
No the major issue of free will is given God's initiative can man believe and then be regenerated and saved

Scripture supports a positive answer to that question

Regeneration is the impartation of life which is preceded by faith/repentance

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. It is through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
I know your position this, you mine.
 
No the major issue of free will is given God's initiative can man believe and then be regenerated and saved

Scripture supports a positive answer to that question

Jesus disagrees with you:

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

Regeneration is the impartation of life which is preceded by faith/repentance

You are once again conflating "regeneration" (which precedes faith) with "eternal life" (which follows faith).

And if you waste everyone's time (and CARM's resources) vomiting up this same list 10,000 more times, you will still be conflating the two concepts.

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

None of these passages are about "regeneration".
 
Jesus disagrees with you:

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.



You are once again conflating "regeneration" (which precedes faith) with "eternal life" (which follows faith).

And if you waste everyone's time (and CARM's resources) vomiting up this same list 10,000 more times, you will still be conflating the two concep



None of these passages are about "regeneration".
It's the same presentation we've both made dozens of times to the same presntation Tom et. al. have made dozens of times.

I'm spending way too much time here, LOL.
 
look at my post again, you changed where I had the quotes. What I put in quotation is exactly word for word whatthe NASV says

Rom. 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just bas you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Rom. 6:20
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. (NASB (1995) )


Okay, I just cut-and-pasted the entire passage from the NASB (1995).
Please point out where it says "do not go on presenting", which is the phrase YOU put in quotes.

Show me.
Because I'm getting really tired of this game.
 
Good point, if both would post a clear definition, that would clarify conversation. Are you interested?
No. I appreciate your contribution in this ATA nevertheless, Tom and I and others have been over what each believes is the ordo salutis dozens of times, and each remains firm in His position.

Got other things to attend to today. God bless you.
 
Rom. 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just bas you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Rom. 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. (NASB (1995) )


Okay, I just cut-and-pasted the entire passage from the NASB (1995).
Please point out where it says "do not go on presenting", which is the phrase YOU put in quotes.

Show me.
Because I'm getting really tired of this game.
I told you already verse 13. But you quoted other verses where the phrase is not stated.
Rom 6:13 ...do not go on presenting...
 
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