And you get that from where in scripture? Your saying Jesus needs an eye witness?
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Unique Doctrines to Adventist Church ONLY ???
- Thread starter SDAchristian
- Start date
Ahh you change the goal posts,AV Mt 24:24-27 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
You did not quote enough, to be not deceived.
ok here is the whole chapter.
Signs of Christ’s Return
24 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away [a]when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those thingsmust take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will [e]betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Perilous Times
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.The Glorious Return
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.Parable of the Fig Tree
32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Be Ready for His Coming
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 Butbe sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My [master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
AV 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Those Who Died in Christ
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of thearchangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.Who are those who are with Him? Verse 14
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Acts 1:1-11 Where will Jesus descend to?AV Mt 24:24-27 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
You did not quote enough, to be not deceived.
AV 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jesus' feet never touch the ground at Jesus' second advent.
Prophecy: Satan's feet touch the ground doing a counterfeit Jesus proclaiming sabbath has been changed to sunday.
I hope the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will help many !!!
I am fairly sure, some of these concepts are not foreign to you.
Yours in Christ, Michael
Introduction
1 The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. 3 To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”
The Ascension
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”SDAchristian
Well-known member
Prologue: GOD says, "Let my People Think, Comprehend and Understand !!!"
AV 1C 2:1-16 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Murderers martyred Jesus/"the Lord of glory", a sabbath keeper. Murderers will martyr Jesus' followers, sabbath keepers too, because they the murderers are "the natural man".
"But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.", Even though "Elias" thought he was the only one left in "I am left alone", a lie in his understanding. GOD still had "seven thousand men" left, not counting women, Right ???
Jesus, Paul was quoting instances of how GOD handled past issues, like lies in understanding. Why do you think that is important to us now ???
Yours in Christ, Michael
AV 1C 2:1-16 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Murderers martyred Jesus/"the Lord of glory", a sabbath keeper. Murderers will martyr Jesus' followers, sabbath keepers too, because they the murderers are "the natural man".
The normal use of my Prologues, are insights to examine other concepts relevant to the topic discussed.What are you trying to get at here Michael with your proof texts?Prologue:
AV Ro 10:19-11:4 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
"But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.", Even though "Elias" thought he was the only one left in "I am left alone", a lie in his understanding. GOD still had "seven thousand men" left, not counting women, Right ???
Jesus, Paul was quoting instances of how GOD handled past issues, like lies in understanding. Why do you think that is important to us now ???
Yours in Christ, Michael
Where do you get that Jesus was a sabbath keeper and that’s why He was killed?Murderers martyred Jesus/"the Lord of glory", a sabbath keeper. Murderers will martyr Jesus' followers, sabbath keepers too, because they the murderers are "the natural man".
19 Pilate then took Jesus and scourged Him. 2 And the soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on His head, and put a purple robe on Him; 3 and they beganto come up to Him and say, “Hail, King of the Jews!” and to give Him slaps in the face.4 Pilate came out again and *said to them, “Behold, I am bringing Him out to you so that you may know that I find no guilt in Him.” 5 Jesus then came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe. Pilate *said to them, “Behold, the Man!” 6 So when the chief priests and the officers saw Him, they cried out saying, “Crucify, crucify!” Pilate *said to them, “Take Him yourselves and crucify Him, for I find no guilt in Him.” 7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God.”
8 Therefore when Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid; 9 and he entered into the Praetorium again and *said to Jesus, “Where are You from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 So Pilate *said to Him, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?”11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” 12 As a result of this Pilate made efforts to release Him, but the Jews cried out saying, “If you release this Man, you are no friend of Caesar; everyone who makes himself out to be a king opposes Caesar.”
13 Therefore when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out, and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Pavement, but in Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14 Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he *said to the Jews, “Behold, your King!” 15 So they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!” Pilate *said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”
Would you like to know God’s anger Micheal? Is God just angry about breaking the Sabbath? Does He get angry about anything else? Did He get angry as per the story above that they made a golden calf? Was that breaking the Law?Prologue:
AV Ro 10:19-11:4 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
AV Jn 5:45-47 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Speaking of "Moses’ Anger": Moses is Jesus' eye witness of the Gospel in the heavenly sanctuary, some context for Jesus too ???
Yours in Christ, Michael
Leviticus 26:1 You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God.
Jeremiah 43:13 He shall also shatter the obelisks of Heliopolis, which is inthe land of Egypt. And the temples of the gods of Egypt he will burn with fire.
Why did God say that they should be destroyed? Was it because it was an idol? Are obelisks an idol?
Why then Michael, is there an obelisk on the grave of EGW? This is punishable by death it is an idol. Why would someone who is so godly, and is a messenger from God put an idol on her grave which is in direct opposition to the Ten Commandments?
SDAchristian
Well-known member
Beginning of Part One of a post that was over 10,000 characters.
Prologue:
This post is like many other posts. In that, a question asked, has been loaded with ideas from the poster that need to be expanded and discussed. On the other former CARM boards, I did expand my rebuttal to address those ideas. But alas, either no reply back, or attempt to dismiss the whole rebuttal on a small detail, with no other discussion continued.
This poster(not the only one) has shown a tenacity of purpose, which I admire and will continue to address concerns in our mutual understanding of scriptures.
AV Jn 8:45-47 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.
Who wants Jesus to ask these questions of themselves ???
AV Jn 6:63-64 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Many will suffer eternal reward of death, for not heeding to/believing in Jesus' "the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life."
I hope that many realize that, I have listed each step of evidence, for the conclusion to be accurate. If perchance, anyone can find a flaw, that can be challenged with other scriptures, using proper precedence of ranking Truth, I need to know. IOW, Paul's words can not out rank the words of Jesus.
Online Quote: At the heart of great leadership is a curious mind, heart and spirit.
End of Prologue:
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,", So do you believe this ??? I will assume, same as me, Yes !!!
AV Mt 10:24 The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.
So do you believe Jesus' words, Absolutely ??? I will assume, same as me, Yes !!!
AV Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell{G86 haides}, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:31-32 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell{G86 haides}, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
After death, and before "the resurrection of Christ", where was Jesus ??? I will assume, same as me, in "hell{G86 haides}"/the grave on earth !!!
Is not resurrection morning, Sunday Keepers favorite piece of scriptures, for a weekly memorial ??? I will assume as all the other Sunday Keepers, Yes !!!
AV Jn 20:12-17 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Do you believe Jesus' statement of "for I am not yet ascended to my Father"/"I ascend unto my Father" as part of the doctrine of resurrection ??? I do, I will assume you do too.
According to Jesus' direct testimony, Jesus went to the Father AFTER the resurrection, when the resurrection was verified by witnesses(Angels and Mary). Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
AV Jn 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves{G3419 mnemeion} shall hear his voice{G5456 phone}, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Review from other scriptures:
"all that are in the graves{G3419 mnemeion}", Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
"shall hear his voice{G5456 phone}", Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
Scripture break:
" For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice{G5456 phone} of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.", There goes another doctrine of many, per Jesus' testimony !!!
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life", Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
Noting: Telling the Truth are good works !!!
"And shall come forth; ... they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.", Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
Please notice the works associated to the kind of resurrection a person gets. These are Jesus' words, Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
End of Part 1:
Yours in Christ, Michael
Prologue:
This post is like many other posts. In that, a question asked, has been loaded with ideas from the poster that need to be expanded and discussed. On the other former CARM boards, I did expand my rebuttal to address those ideas. But alas, either no reply back, or attempt to dismiss the whole rebuttal on a small detail, with no other discussion continued.
This poster(not the only one) has shown a tenacity of purpose, which I admire and will continue to address concerns in our mutual understanding of scriptures.
AV Jn 8:45-47 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.
Who wants Jesus to ask these questions of themselves ???
AV Jn 6:63-64 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Many will suffer eternal reward of death, for not heeding to/believing in Jesus' "the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life."
This is a bilateral technique including rebuttals on both sides.Hostile Witness said:A witness who testifies against the party who has called the person to testify. The examiner may ask a hostile witness leading questions, as in cross-examination. Also called an adverse witness.
I hope that many realize that, I have listed each step of evidence, for the conclusion to be accurate. If perchance, anyone can find a flaw, that can be challenged with other scriptures, using proper precedence of ranking Truth, I need to know. IOW, Paul's words can not out rank the words of Jesus.
Online Quote: At the heart of great leadership is a curious mind, heart and spirit.
End of Prologue:
I am so Glad you asked !!!AV 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Those Who Died in Christ
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of thearchangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Who are those who are with Him? Verse 14
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,", So do you believe this ??? I will assume, same as me, Yes !!!
AV Mt 10:24 The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.
So do you believe Jesus' words, Absolutely ??? I will assume, same as me, Yes !!!
AV Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell{G86 haides}, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:31-32 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell{G86 haides}, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
After death, and before "the resurrection of Christ", where was Jesus ??? I will assume, same as me, in "hell{G86 haides}"/the grave on earth !!!
Is not resurrection morning, Sunday Keepers favorite piece of scriptures, for a weekly memorial ??? I will assume as all the other Sunday Keepers, Yes !!!
AV Jn 20:12-17 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Do you believe Jesus' statement of "for I am not yet ascended to my Father"/"I ascend unto my Father" as part of the doctrine of resurrection ??? I do, I will assume you do too.
According to Jesus' direct testimony, Jesus went to the Father AFTER the resurrection, when the resurrection was verified by witnesses(Angels and Mary). Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
AV Jn 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves{G3419 mnemeion} shall hear his voice{G5456 phone}, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Review from other scriptures:
"all that are in the graves{G3419 mnemeion}", Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
"shall hear his voice{G5456 phone}", Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
Scripture break:
" For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice{G5456 phone} of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.", There goes another doctrine of many, per Jesus' testimony !!!
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life", Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
Noting: Telling the Truth are good works !!!
"And shall come forth; ... they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.", Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
Please notice the works associated to the kind of resurrection a person gets. These are Jesus' words, Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
End of Part 1:
Yours in Christ, Michael
SDAchristian
Well-known member
Beginning of Part Two:
AV 1Th 4:12-13 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and [that] ye may have lack of nothing. 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Paul preface this section with "walk honestly" and "I would not have you to be ignorant", about "them which are asleep". So what does Paul mean by "asleep" ??? An euphemism for death, like Jesus did.
AV Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
AV Jn 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
AV Jn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
An euphemism for death, is sleep. Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep,"
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus."
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep."
An euphemism for death, is "asleep". Did Paul lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
Here we establish Paul's focus on "asleep"/"the dead", for this letter written to the living, at that time. Obviously, an understanding issue with the early church. Some issues that extended into our present day.
A common issue with "will not precede" is with "precede", "G5348 phthano, apparently a primary verb; to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at."
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."
IOW, The translated living will not precede the resurrected saints. If you think Paul lied, please explain that very carefully to me ???
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.", Context Please !!!
"For if we", This epistle is written to the living.
"believe that Jesus died and rose again,", What we believe happen to Jesus ...
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout{of command by the Father}, with the voice of the archangel{voice of Jesus} and with the trumpet of God{wind of the Holy Spirit}, and the dead in Christ will rise first.", Three persons of the GODhead in "even so God". The living will be witnesses of GODhead's presence and Jesus' second advent AND witnesses to the resurrection of the dead, as was to Jesus' resurrection. Also noting, Lazarus' resurrection was witnessed too with, no recorded testimony to support, what happened in Lazarus' death experience. Curious minds, would have asked, because of love.
"even so God will bring WITH Him", To the living, it is obvious they will go with Christ. To the living, it was not so obvious about "asleep"/"the dead" whether they would go "WITH Him", this was the point of most of these words in these verses, to the living.
Conclusion:
"Who are those who are with Him? Verse 14", It was obvious to the living translated would go with Jesus/"For the Lord Himself", but "asleep"/"the dead" was the concern of the living for "those".
AV Lk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
AV Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
And by Paul with the new testament !!!
Yours in Christ, Michael
End of Part 2:
"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope."Those Who Died in Christ
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of thearchangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Who are those who are with Him? Verse 14
AV 1Th 4:12-13 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and [that] ye may have lack of nothing. 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Paul preface this section with "walk honestly" and "I would not have you to be ignorant", about "them which are asleep". So what does Paul mean by "asleep" ??? An euphemism for death, like Jesus did.
AV Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
AV Jn 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
AV Jn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
An euphemism for death, is sleep. Did Jesus lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep,"
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus."
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep."
An euphemism for death, is "asleep". Did Paul lie ??? Not to me, so not to you, Right ???
Here we establish Paul's focus on "asleep"/"the dead", for this letter written to the living, at that time. Obviously, an understanding issue with the early church. Some issues that extended into our present day.
A common issue with "will not precede" is with "precede", "G5348 phthano, apparently a primary verb; to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at."
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."
IOW, The translated living will not precede the resurrected saints. If you think Paul lied, please explain that very carefully to me ???
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.", Context Please !!!
"For if we", This epistle is written to the living.
"believe that Jesus died and rose again,", What we believe happen to Jesus ...
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout{of command by the Father}, with the voice of the archangel{voice of Jesus} and with the trumpet of God{wind of the Holy Spirit}, and the dead in Christ will rise first.", Three persons of the GODhead in "even so God". The living will be witnesses of GODhead's presence and Jesus' second advent AND witnesses to the resurrection of the dead, as was to Jesus' resurrection. Also noting, Lazarus' resurrection was witnessed too with, no recorded testimony to support, what happened in Lazarus' death experience. Curious minds, would have asked, because of love.
"even so God will bring WITH Him", To the living, it is obvious they will go with Christ. To the living, it was not so obvious about "asleep"/"the dead" whether they would go "WITH Him", this was the point of most of these words in these verses, to the living.
Conclusion:
"Who are those who are with Him? Verse 14", It was obvious to the living translated would go with Jesus/"For the Lord Himself", but "asleep"/"the dead" was the concern of the living for "those".
AV Lk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
AV Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
And by Paul with the new testament !!!
Yours in Christ, Michael
End of Part 2:
Matthew 12:40After death, and before "the resurrection of Christ", where was Jesus ??? I will assume, same as me, in "hell{G86 haides}"/the grave on earth !!!
Jesus talking here, “For just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. You said the grave on earth when Jesus said He’d be in the heart of the earth, these are two different places.
So what did Jesus do before the resurrection?
1st Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also died for our sins once and for all, the just and the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
In which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison.
Who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few that is eight persons were brought safely through the water.
Where are those spirits which are in prison? Hell? Hades? Did Jesus not talk about Abrahams bosom in Luke 16:19-31
I asked earlier did Jesus rest on the Sabbath you never answered but here’s the answer. John 5:17 He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I myself am working”. Did Jesus say this on the Sabbath? So does Jesus rest?
Therefore Micheal what is the answer to 1st Thess 4:14 “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those that have fallen asleep in Jesus. So again who are those God will bring with Him who have fallen asleep in Jesus before we meet them in the clouds?
Who are those who are with Him? Verse 14", It was obvious to the living translated would go with Jesus/"For the Lord Himself", but "asleep"/"the dead" was the concern of the living for "those”.
SDAchristian
Well-known member
Quick Question: Do you believe this doctrine in your post is salvific then ???Matthew 12:40
Jesus talking here, “For just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. You said the grave on earth when Jesus said He’d be in the heart of the earth, these are two different places.
So what did Jesus do before the resurrection?
1st Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also died for our sins once and for all, the just and the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
In which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison.
Who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few that is eight persons were brought safely through the water.
Where are those spirits which are in prison? Hell? Hades? Did Jesus not talk about Abrahams bosom in Luke 16:19-31
I asked earlier did Jesus rest on the Sabbath you never answered but here’s the answer. John 5:17 He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I myself am working”. Did Jesus say this on the Sabbath? So does Jesus rest?
Therefore Micheal what is the answer to 1st Thess 4:14 “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those that have fallen asleep in Jesus. So again who are those God will bring with Him who have fallen asleep in Jesus before we meet them in the clouds?
Who are those who are with Him? Verse 14", It was obvious to the living translated would go with Jesus/"For the Lord Himself", but "asleep"/"the dead" was the concern of the living for "those”.
Yours in Christ, Michael
Yes I do because if you don’t understand there is a living immortal spirit inside you that needs to be brought alive by Christ you cannot attain eternal life, all things revolve around this because only then can you comprehend the purpose of the cross and how believing in Jesus brings salvation.Quick Question: Do you believe this doctrine in your post is salvific then ???
Unless you understand that you will always refer to the physical aspect of sin ie breaking the Sabbath as something that will cause me not to have salvation.
Being born again is not something physical, it’s not about going through 28 fundamentals to prove your worthy enough to be baptised and thus saved.
Ephesians 2 is very clear about being dead in your transgressions that’s not physical dead but spiritually dead. Verse 6 tells us we have been raised up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, again this is spiritual. Verse 8, for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and not of yourselves but a gift from God. What is that gift? Verse 4,5 But God, being rich I mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ. That’s your spirit being made alive.
Once you understand that it’s the spirit that’s dead then you can start understanding about the different deaths and resurrections there are.
SDAchristian
Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Re 16:4-7 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
This is special plague for the sins of living murderers(and accomplices) of the living end time "saints and prophets", who were kill by their actions or approval. GOD has the martyrs' back in their living sacrifice to the GODhead. The Holy Spirit will convince everyone of their part in the end time show down, if they are listening.
Goats are self deceived to the point, where they can not recognize Jesus in "saints and prophets". Bababababadadadadad news for goats.
My first objection: We need to understand a shared reason for Jesus blood. We currently have understanding issues with what is sin.
AV Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
" ... because only then can you comprehend the purpose of the cross and how believing in Jesus brings salvation.", Then I need to understand your Point Of View of how to define "sins", that "my blood of the new testament" gives "for the remission of" ???
Corollary question: Does a sinner need to be conscious of a unrepented sin, to be judged of GOD ???
Yours in Christ, Michael
AV Re 16:4-7 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
This is special plague for the sins of living murderers(and accomplices) of the living end time "saints and prophets", who were kill by their actions or approval. GOD has the martyrs' back in their living sacrifice to the GODhead. The Holy Spirit will convince everyone of their part in the end time show down, if they are listening.
Goats are self deceived to the point, where they can not recognize Jesus in "saints and prophets". Bababababadadadadad news for goats.
Is that not some of the reasons people in the past, express to prophets of old, just as they murdered them ???Yes I do because if you don’t understand there is a living immortal spirit inside you that needs to be brought alive by Christ you cannot attain eternal life, all things revolve around this because only then can you comprehend the purpose of the cross and how believing in Jesus brings salvation.Quick Question: Do you believe this doctrine in your post is salvific then ???Matthew 12:40
Jesus talking here, “For just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. You said the grave on earth when Jesus said He’d be in the heart of the earth, these are two different places.
So what did Jesus do before the resurrection?
1st Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also died for our sins once and for all, the just and the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
In which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison.
Who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few that is eight persons were brought safely through the water.
Where are those spirits which are in prison? Hell? Hades? Did Jesus not talk about Abrahams bosom in Luke 16:19-31
I asked earlier did Jesus rest on the Sabbath you never answered but here’s the answer. John 5:17 He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I myself am working”. Did Jesus say this on the Sabbath? So does Jesus rest?
Therefore Micheal what is the answer to 1st Thess 4:14 “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those that have fallen asleep in Jesus. So again who are those God will bring with Him who have fallen asleep in Jesus before we meet them in the clouds?
Who are those who are with Him? Verse 14", It was obvious to the living translated would go with Jesus/"For the Lord Himself", but "asleep"/"the dead" was the concern of the living for "those”.
My first objection: We need to understand a shared reason for Jesus blood. We currently have understanding issues with what is sin.
AV Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
" ... because only then can you comprehend the purpose of the cross and how believing in Jesus brings salvation.", Then I need to understand your Point Of View of how to define "sins", that "my blood of the new testament" gives "for the remission of" ???
Corollary question: Does a sinner need to be conscious of a unrepented sin, to be judged of GOD ???
Yours in Christ, Michael
SDAchristian
Well-known member
First/sun day is pagan. They sacrifice humans because of that day.Would you like to know God’s anger Micheal? Is God just angry about breaking the Sabbath? Does He get angry about anything else? Did He get angry as per the story above that they made a golden calf? Was that breaking the Law?
Leviticus 26:1 You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God.
Jeremiah 43:13 He shall also shatter the obelisks of Heliopolis, which is inthe land of Egypt. And the temples of the gods of Egypt he will burn with fire.
Why did God say that they should be destroyed? Was it because it was an idol? Are obelisks an idol?
AV Jn 11:49-53 And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
The judgments of GOD are coming. It will be circulated, it is because of sabbath keepers, just like Jesus was, Right ???
When human are sacrificed again, got to ask yourself who is the pagan then ???
Only One needed to die for all the people, but it had to be perfect in all ways before GOD, to be a proper sacrifice.
Yours in Christ, Michael
SDAchristian
Well-known member
There is plenty of apologetic material on this. If you care to look, but judgment is more important than fact checking, Right ???Why then Michael, is there an obelisk on the grave of EGW? This is punishable by death it is an idol. Why would someone who is so godly, and is a messenger from God put an idol on her grave which is in direct opposition to the Ten Commandments?
Here is your clue: So are you going to tear down every church with an obelisk/steeples on it, because of your judgment ???
You know mine. What is your weekly denominational church choice ??? <<< You are not afraid of Truth are you ???
Yours in Christ, Michael
You are shifting the burden of proof from you onto to another poster, by asking an irrelevant aand impertinent question .Quick Question: Do you believe this doctrine in your post is salvific then ???
You have no business to question the salvation of another poster, especially when you use Ellen as the yardstick.
Goats are not sentient animals, AND, ONCE AGAIN, (sigh) you are insulting Christians who do not agree with you by calling them stupid names.Goats are self deceived
FYI It is expected to hear that being taunted to others by 9 years-old third graders on the playground. Sorry if you do not like that description of your childish insults, but that is the way that appear on my monitor, and you alone are responsible for the insults you spew.
BTW Describing your words is NOT the same as hurling ad homiinens, as you so frequently do, and your posts are great proofs of the SDA church being a cult, and they provide great reasons not to become a SDA person. The churches produce toxic and judgmental people who think and act like they are better than anyone else. .
No I’m not interested in the apologetic material, she has something on her grave which is against what God said.There is plenty of apologetic material on this. If you care to look, but judgment is more important than fact checking, Right ???
Here is your clue: So are you going to tear down every church with an obelisk/steeples on it, because of your judgment ???
You know mine. What is your weekly denominational church choice ??? <<< You are not afraid of Truth are you ???
Yours in Christ, Michael
I don’t go to any churches which have an obelisk it is offensive to God.
You’ve been become defensive over a grave I would suggest that you have proof that your “prophet“ clearly didn’t read the bible otherwise she wouldn’t have allowed that on her grave.
Will it be on my grave absolutely not, it’s forbidden. And I showed you from scripture where it was forbidden.
Where I go to church is not a part of this discussion I would though like to remind you that we are still in a pandemic and going to church is severely restricted here in the UK. Please note for that the funeral yesterday of Prince Philip only 30 people could go, that’s the same for going to church.
Would EGW get a pass on that because she kept the sabbath?
You say the judgement of the Lord is coming, who is it coming for? The believers or unbelievers?First/sun day is pagan. They sacrifice humans because of that day.
AV Jn 11:49-53 And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
The judgments of GOD are coming. It will be circulated, it is because of sabbath keepers, just like Jesus was, Right ???
When human are sacrificed again, got to ask yourself who is the pagan then ???
Only One needed to die for all the people, but it had to be perfect in all ways before GOD, to be a proper sacrifice.
Yours in Christ, Michael
I am not sure who you think is the ones who will be standing in front of the great white throne of God (Rev 20:11) but it’s not for unbelievers. But go ahead Michael if you want to stand in front of that great white throne carry on condemning others, insulting them make groundless accusations against them as you have done here, and what will be your defence? Well EGW said the most important commandment is the 4th so I must be saved because I kept the sabbath.
Oh wow! How old are you? Typical Adventist talk, can’t reason logically with clear scripture more than one or two verses long and you call me a goat?Goats are self deceived to the point, where they can not recognize Jesus in "saints and prophets". Bababababadadadadad news for goats
Grow up Michael, stop being defensive of Ellen and be defensive of God, cause that’s what we are doing.