Unreasonable critics

Theo1689

Well-known member
But isn't this a true of the supralapsarian position? Aren't you assuming that all Calvinists are infralapsarians?

No, there are two problems here:

1) Just because SOME Calvinists may be "supra" doesn't mean you can broadbrush Calvinists" based on that. It would be as errant as saying, "Christians hold to determinism", based on the fact that SOME Christians are Calvinists.

2) Secondly, as far as I understand, Supra's still believe that the reprobate are all sinners, and eternal damnation is BECAUSE of their sin. The logical order doesn't alter that fact.
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
2) Secondly, as far as I understand, Supra's still believe that the reprobate are all sinners, and eternal damnation is BECAUSE of their sin. The logical order doesn't alter that fact.
I get that that's what they would say about their position; but is it even logical? If God's decree of election and reprobation logically existed before His decree of the fall, then it follows that the fall is a logical consequence of the first decree. Thus, the original quote "You believe in a God who condemns people apart from anything they've ever done" is technically true...IF the Calvinist in question is a supralapsarian.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I get that that's what they would say about their position; but is it even logical? If God's decree of election and reprobation logically existed before His decree of the fall, then it follows that the fall is a logical consequence of the first decree. Thus, the original quote "You believe in a God who condemns people apart from anything they've ever done" is technically true...IF the Calvinist in question is a supralapsarian.
No, God purposed to condemn the non elect for their sins before they had being. He didnt condemn them for their sins because He knew they would be unrepentant sinners, No He Created them to be unrepentant sinners that He will justly condemn. He made them to be vessels of wrath and to fit them for destruction.

Rom 2 5;8-9

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
8 but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom 9 21-22
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
He didnt condemn them for their sins because He knew they would be unrepentant sinners, No He Created them to be unrepentant sinners that He will justly condemn. He made them to be vessels of wrath and to fit them for destruction.
It sounds to me like you're agreeing with me. If God ordained that many of His creatures would be unrepentant sinners so that He would have a just reason to destroy them, then the statement "You believe in a God who condemns people apart from anything they've ever done" is true.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
It sounds to me like you're agreeing with me. If God ordained that many of His creatures would be unrepentant sinners so that He would have a just reason to destroy them, then the statement "You believe in a God who condemns people apart from anything they've ever done" is true.
No I dont agree with you.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
It sounds to me like you're agreeing with me. If God ordained that many of His creatures would be unrepentant sinners so that He would have a just reason to destroy them, then the statement "You believe in a God who condemns people apart from anything they've ever done" is true.
Amazing isn't it how they wind up defending what they originally deny
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So it's what God permits or allows? How does that work with LFW??
LFW as is held is of a soft or limited variety. It does not doubt that God is in control 0r that he can and does at times determine outcomes

Being in control does not necessitate meticulous determination of all things
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
LFW as is held is of a soft or limited variety. It does not doubt that God is in control 0r that he can and does at times determine outcomes

Being in control does not necessitate meticulous determination of all things

It does it you have a particular outcome in mind. Logically
 
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