Upon this rock/Keys

Bonnie

Super Member
He gave us His Catholic Church for the teachings, etc.
He gave us no such thing. Why would He give us a church with corrupt leaders who teach contrary to Scriptures?

If all of the doctrines your church teaches that we disagree with are so important, them why didn't the HS inspire the NT writers to record them? Why wait hundreds of years, in some cases, before your church made them doctrines? However were early Christians saved without them? :rolleyes:
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
He gave us no such thing. Why would He give us a church with corrupt leaders who teach contrary to Scriptures?

If all of the doctrines your church teaches that we disagree with are so important, them why didn't the HS inspire the NT writers to record them? Why wait hundreds of years, in some cases, before your church made them doctrines? However were early Christians saved without them? :rolleyes:
The Church was in its infancy then. As the Church matured, the more it understood what was revealed in Scripture.
 

Nondenom40

Super Member
The Church was in its infancy then. As the Church matured, the more it understood what was revealed in Scripture.
Thats your excuse? Your dogmas didn't arrive for in some cases over 1900 years so the church was in its infancy that entire time? Either its in the bible or its not. The deity of Jesus is clearly spelled out in the bible. Yet 2000 years of writings have helped us understand it better. But its always been there is the point. Your dogmas have never been in the bible. They aren't fleshed out, they are invented.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Thats your excuse? Your dogmas didn't arrive for in some cases over 1900 years so the church was in its infancy that entire time? Either its in the bible or its not. The deity of Jesus is clearly spelled out in the bible. Yet 2000 years of writings have helped us understand it better. But its always been there is the point. Your dogmas have never been in the bible. They aren't fleshed out, they are invented.
The Church was in its infancy then. As the Church matured, the more it understood what was revealed in Scripture.
John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
 

Nondenom40

Super Member
John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
And? Does that mean you get to just make it up?

Jude 3
Jude 1:3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

First century. Not a millennia later. Or more. And if it takes a thousand years or two to 'understand what was revealed in scripture' then your claims of papal infallibility are nonsense, which they are. Gods word doesn't take thousands of years to understand. And by 'revealed in scripture' you really mean make up what isn't there and pretend it was there but in 'acorn' form. Al la Newman.
 

balshan

Well-known member
He gave us no such thing. Why would He give us a church with corrupt leaders who teach contrary to Scriptures?

If all of the doctrines your church teaches that we disagree with are so important, them why didn't the HS inspire the NT writers to record them? Why wait hundreds of years, in some cases, before your church made them doctrines? However were early Christians saved without them? :rolleyes:
I have a good laugh at some of the replies of the RCs on that point about not being in scripture. It often is that it was an infant church and had to mature. Seriously these are people who walked with Jesus, talked with Jesus, understood Jesus, were His disciples and they were only on milk. The RCs show how desperate they are to promote their false beliefs, that the RCC has added to scripture, gone beyond scripture and takes away/ignores scripture. The RCC does what scripture clearly says not to do and thus they give us another gospel. Scripture is clear another gospel should be ignored, kicked out and destroyed.
 

balshan

Well-known member
John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Prove the spirit of truth is with your institution? It isn't your institution lies and the spirit of truth is not with liars.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The Church was in its infancy then.

So what? People still managed to he saved by grace through in Christ Jesus our Lord, without believing all the extra-biblical nonsense about Mary, Purgatory, being subject to the pope is necessary for salvation, etc.
As the Church matured, the more it understood what was revealed in Scripture.
Yes IN Scripture, not in added on man-made doctrines, such as the ones I just listed, found nowhere in the Bible, that showed up hundreds of years after the 1st. Century.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
So what? People still managed to he saved by grace through in Christ Jesus our Lord, without believing all the extra-biblical nonsense about Mary, Purgatory, being subject to the pope is necessary for salvation, etc.

Yes IN Scripture, not in added on man-made doctrines, such as the ones I just listed, found nowhere in the Bible, that showed up hundreds of years after the 1st. Century.
So tell us where it says in Scripture that they understood everything and their understanding would never increase over time.

John 16: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
 

Nondenom40

Super Member
So tell us where it says in Scripture that they understood everything and their understanding would never increase over time.

John 16: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Apples and oranges. The ability to understand or increase in knowledge is not the same as developing unique, never seen before doctrines and dogmas. Something your church has done repeatedly. Bonnie said your doctrines are found no where in the bible. She didn't say you simply lacked understanding of them.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Apples and oranges. The ability to understand or increase in knowledge is not the same as developing unique, never seen before doctrines and dogmas. Something your church has done repeatedly. Bonnie said your doctrines are found no where in the bible. She didn't say you simply lacked understanding of them.

What knowledge did the Lutherans develop over the centuries since their founding in 1517, except a loosening of morals? How about the other mainlines and non denoms?
 

balshan

Well-known member
So tell us where it says in Scripture that they understood everything and their understanding would never increase over time.

John 16: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Where in scripture does it say that the church will mature and this maturity means the leaders will become sexually immoral sinners who harm the flock or those who know and do nothing about it. Please quote one verse.

Because 1 Cor 5 is very clear about what should happen to such sinners - do not eat with them in other words do not mix with them.
 
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