Upon this rock/Keys

dingoling.

Well-known member
Because I have a witness in God's word. The law Christ came to magnify is a tried-and-true witness of the truth, and anything or anyone who contradicts the truth is a liar.

The Catholic church has not only deceived herself, but most of mainstream Christianity as well by inculcating the world to the lie that God's word is untrustworthy and must be interpreted through the lens of Catholic doctrine.

The level of deception is incomprehensible to most who sincerely believe that they're safe in opposing those few doctrines of Catholicism while gobbling up far more lies from the Catholic church than they may ever know. They feel safe in obsessing over a few minor doctrines while blissfully trumpeting one Catholic lie after another.

Again, they may have a chance just like a practicing Catholic would if they are covered by that spirit of stupor God sent to protect them from knowingly committing the unforgiveable sin.
You have a witness of God's word? Much of what you believe and what you would have us to believe is not God's word.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
an interpretation that MAY be an ALLUSION
IS NOT A PROOF TEXT!

Haydock Catholic Bible Commentary on Rev 12
A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ, shining with the light of faith, under the protection of the sun of justice, Jesus Christ. The moon, the Church, hath all changeable things of this world under her feet, the affections of the faithful being raised above them all. --- A woman: the Church of God.
It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady [the Virgin Mary]. The Church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet; and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions. (Challoner) --- On her head....twelve stars, her doctrine being delivered by the twelve apostles and their successors. (Witham)

Q: What do the "interpreters commonly understand " this to mean?

A: The Church is the common interpretation; not Mary
"Today, the liturgy reminds us of this consoling truth of faith, while it sings the praises of she who has been crowned with incomparable glory. We read today in the verse from Apocalypse proposed by the Church for our meditation: “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (12: 1). In this woman, resplendent with light, the Fathers of the Church have recognized Mary. In her triumph the Christian people, pilgrims in history, catch a glimpse of the fulfilment of its longing and a certain sign of its hope." Pope Benedict XVI
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
You have a witness of God's word?
Yes, the Mosaic law, and Paul's inspired witness as well, e.g. "Which shew the work of THE LAW WRITTEN in their hearts, their conscience ALSO BEARING WITNESS,...But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being WITNESSED BY THE LAW and the prophets;" 2:15; 3:21

The first clue should be the fact that it's referred to as a "testament"

"something that serves as a sign or evidence of a specified fact, event, or quality:
"growing attendance figures are a testament to the event's popularity"
SIMILAR:
testimony
witness
Much of what you believe and what you would have us to believe is not God's word.
Please document this claim with some evidence.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
"Today, the liturgy reminds us of this consoling truth of faith, while it sings the praises of she who has been crowned with incomparable glory. We read today in the verse from Apocalypse proposed by the Church for our meditation: “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (12: 1). In this woman, resplendent with light, the Fathers of the Church have recognized Mary. In her triumph the Christian people, pilgrims in history, catch a glimpse of the fulfilment of its longing and a certain sign of its hope." Pope Benedict XVI


Are homilies authoritative?
neither the interpretation by Pope Benedict XVI or Haydock Catholic Bible Commentary
is consider infallible. Correct?


"By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ"
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
Yes, the Mosaic law, and Paul's inspired witness as well, e.g. "Which shew the work of THE LAW WRITTEN in their hearts, their conscience ALSO BEARING WITNESS,...But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being WITNESSED BY THE LAW and the prophets;" 2:15; 3:21

The first clue should be the fact that it's referred to as a "testament"

"something that serves as a sign or evidence of a specified fact, event, or quality:
"growing attendance figures are a testament to the event's popularity"
SIMILAR:
testimony
witness

Please document this claim with some evidence.
Here are a few that the nCCs claim:

- person is saved by faith alone and not by works
- we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ a the moment of conversion and it is this righteousness that we stand before God on
- scripture alone is the final/sole authority for the Christian faith
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Are homilies authoritative?
neither the interpretation by Pope Benedict XVI or Haydock Catholic Bible Commentary
is consider infallible. Correct?


"By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ"
The Church that put that reading in the lectionary for the feast of the Assumption and the pope who was a renowned theologian are more authoritative than a commentary.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
The Church that put that reading in the lectionary for the feast of the Assumption and the pope who was a renowned theologian are more authoritative than a commentary
"By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ:
and
it may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady [the Virgin Mary].

Please explain how that meets the level of a proof text
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Here are a few that the nCCs claim:
Strawman argument.
- person is saved by faith alone and not by works
This is too vague to be taken seriously. If the subject is the cause of salvation, it is the "faith OF Christ" i.e. Christ's faith placed into the new creation by God's sovereign will by the power of the holy spirit. If the subject is the possibility of faith not producing works, then the answer is a resounding "No." due to the fact that only doers of the law shall be justified.

Here again, this opens up a whole can of worms due to the fact that Catholics are in open rebellion against God's law, e.g. profanation of the Sabbath, the Feast Days, the dietary laws, condoning adultery etc. etc. etc.
- we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ a the moment of conversion and it is this righteousness that we stand before God on
There is only the righteousness of Christ. As Paul usefully observes, "no one is righteous, no not one."
- scripture alone is the final/sole authority for the Christian faith
The law itself points out that there must be two witnesses. Of course those two witnesses must agree with each other. This is rarely the case with the Catholic church.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
"By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ:
and
it may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady [the Virgin Mary].

Please explain how that meets the level of a proof text
You believe that the child is Jesus, right? Everyone knows who His mother is.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
how is it a proof text if
interpreters commonly understand the woman as Church of Christ?
Gal 4: 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

Who is the woman? Israel? The Church?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Gal 4: 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Has anyone ever disagreed Jesus was born of a woman?
Who is the woman? Israel? The Church?
Could be either

or it "it may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady [the Virgin Mary."
do you think possible allusions are proof texts?

(i'm just trying to see how low are your standards for a proof text)
 
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pilgrim

Well-known member
Has anyone ever disagreed Jesus was born of a woman?

Could be either

or it "it may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady [the Virgin Mary."
do you think possible allusions are proof texts?

(i'm just trying to see how low are your standards for a proof text)
Do you think the commentary is infallible?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Youre showing your lack of interpretive skills.

Born of a woman
sign of a woman

Which one is literal and which one is symbolic?
interpreters commonly understand the woman as Church of Christ?
or it "it may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady, the Virgin Mary."


how is that a proof text?

(i'm just trying to see how low are your standards for a proof text)
apparently possible allusions may be offered as proof text by Carm-posting Catholics
 

balshan

Well-known member
How do we know that it is not you who believe a lie and have been sent a "spirit of stupor "?
Well look at facts:

1. Your institution has added to scripture.
2. Your institution has gone beyond scripture.
3. Your institution takes away/ignores scripture.

These are not signs of those Jesus would give authority to, it shows those who want to alter God's truth.

4. Do they act like those who have authority? The answer is no. They are not good Bereans, they follow man made traditions and prefer the words of men to the words of God.
5. Do they past the fruit test and the answer is no. The leaders throughout the centuries have ignored sin and ignored 1 cor 5:11.
6. Do they lie? Yes they do, they have revised its history wiping out the evil it has done, their have been centuries of scandals that show who your leaders follow.

These are just some of the signs that reveal the RCC is not founded by Jesus and does not have His authority. Yet RCs misquote one verse of scripture and hang their belief on that, that the RCC is authoritative. Yet the visible signs ( a word RCs Love) are that it is not authoritative, it is not apostolic, it is led by blind guides, wolves in sheep's clothing.
 
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