Upon this rock/Keys

dingoling.

Well-known member
i asked you the question first:
I will answer your question after you answer mine
stop avoiding it

Question---->in Romans 4: was Abraham justified by God (declared righteous by God) before or after he obeyed?
That is all you seem to do when you don't have the exact words of scripture to support your belief - is to asked questions.

In essence you are just wanting us to see scripture the way you see it, so we can come to the same conclusion that you have come to. That seems to be your method of settling issues.

But that doesn't settle the issue because there are more ways of looking at scripture.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
That is all you seem to do when you don't have the exact words of scripture to support your belief - is to asked questions.

In essence you are just wanting us to see scripture the way you see it, so we can come to the same conclusion that you have come to. That seems to be your method of settling issues. But that doesn't settle the issue because there are more ways of seeing scripture.
Romans 4:10 tells me Abraham was justified by God (declared righteous by God) before he obeyed:
exact words "It was not after, but before! "
Does it mean something different to you?
(here is your chance)
 
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dingoling.

Well-known member
Romans 4:10 tells me Abraham was justified by God (declared righteous by God) before he obeyed:
exact words "It was not after, but before! "
Does it mean something different to you?
(here is your chance)
Romans 4:9-11, "Is this blessedness, then, pronounced only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We say, “Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the ancestor of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them,"

There is nothing in this passage that anything about Abraham obeying.

Abraham had already obeyed before his "Faith was reckoned" as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8-12, "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; and he set out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he stayed for a time in the land he had been promised, as in a foreign land, living in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he looked forward to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. By faith he received power of procreation, even though he was too old—and Sarah herself was barren—because he considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one person, and this one as good as dead, descendants were born, “as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.”

There is more than one way at looking at scripture.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
There is nothing in this passage that anything about Abraham obeying.
When Abraham obeying when we received his circumcision or disobeying?

Abraham had already obeyed before his "Faith was reckoned" as righteousness.

FALSE!!!!
"“Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised."
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
When Abraham obeying when we received his circumcision or disobeying?



FALSE!!!!
"“Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised."
Abraham was obeying when he set out for a place that he was to receive....as it states in Hebrews 11. His faith/obedience was before he was circumcised.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
So how does this show that we are saved by faith alone and not by works?
We are justified (declared righteous by God) by faith

Romans 4:2
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith
 
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dingoling.

Well-known member
We are justified (declared righteous by God) by faith

Romans 4:2
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith
But you have to deal with other passages of scripture. Hebrews 11:8 says "By faith Abraham obeyed...."

You keep pushing this faith alone doctrine but scripture as a whole doesn't. There is a functional relationship between faith and works.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
But you have to deal with other passages of scripture. Hebrews 11:8 says "By faith Abraham obeyed...."

You keep pushing this faith alone doctrine but scripture as a whole doesn't. There is a functional relationship between faith and works.
yes; we all agree: "By faith Abraham obeyed...."

the question is: are we justified by faith prior to any works?

"But whatever in the justified
precedes or follows
the free gift of faith
is neither the basis of justification
nor merits it."

-The Vatican
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
yes; we all agree: "By faith Abraham obeyed...."

the question is: are we justified by faith prior to any works?

"But whatever in the justified
precedes or follows
the free gift of faith
is neither the basis of justification
nor merits it."

-The Vatican
Abraham was.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
Their standards change based on what doctrine we happen to be discussing I think.
You THINK? That is more a certainty than a thought!

Bible only Christians are Bible only when it suits, and Bible only Christians appeal to Tradition when it suits all the while claiming not to be appealing to Tradition!
 
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