Well it is needed at the end of a question.did it need one? we have been going back and forth for months about authority [elders]
don't worry about it
Well it is needed at the end of a question.did it need one? we have been going back and forth for months about authority [elders]
don't worry about it
and a commaWell it is needed at the end of a question.
That is all you seem to do when you don't have the exact words of scripture to support your belief - is to asked questions.i asked you the question first:
I will answer your question after you answer mine
stop avoiding it
Question---->in Romans 4: was Abraham justified by God (declared righteous by God) before or after he obeyed?
you have not been discussing Elder authority with medid it need one? we have been going back and forth for months about authority [elders]
so you won't bring it up againdon't worry about it
yes, we have -- do you not recall my posts regarding 'laying on of hands'?you have not been discussing Elder authority with me
Romans 4:10 tells me Abraham was justified by God (declared righteous by God) before he obeyed:That is all you seem to do when you don't have the exact words of scripture to support your belief - is to asked questions.
In essence you are just wanting us to see scripture the way you see it, so we can come to the same conclusion that you have come to. That seems to be your method of settling issues. But that doesn't settle the issue because there are more ways of seeing scripture.
Romans 4:9-11, "Is this blessedness, then, pronounced only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We say, “Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the ancestor of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them,"Romans 4:10 tells me Abraham was justified by God (declared righteous by God) before he obeyed:
exact words "It was not after, but before! "
Does it mean something different to you?
(here is your chance)
When Abraham obeying when we received his circumcision or disobeying?There is nothing in this passage that anything about Abraham obeying.
Abraham had already obeyed before his "Faith was reckoned" as righteousness.
Abraham was obeying when he set out for a place that he was to receive....as it states in Hebrews 11. His faith/obedience was before he was circumcised.When Abraham obeying when we received his circumcision or disobeying?
FALSE!!!!
"“Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised."
and his credited righteousness (aka justification by God) was also before he set out for a placeAbraham was obeying when he set out for a place that he was to receive....as it states in Hebrews 11. His faith/obedience was before he was circumcised.
So how does this show that we are saved by faith alone and not by works?and his credited righteousness (aka justification by God) was also before he set out for a place
We are justified (declared righteous by God) by faithSo how does this show that we are saved by faith alone and not by works?
But you have to deal with other passages of scripture. Hebrews 11:8 says "By faith Abraham obeyed...."We are justified (declared righteous by God) by faith
Romans 4:2
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith
yes; we all agree: "By faith Abraham obeyed...."But you have to deal with other passages of scripture. Hebrews 11:8 says "By faith Abraham obeyed...."
You keep pushing this faith alone doctrine but scripture as a whole doesn't. There is a functional relationship between faith and works.
Abraham was.yes; we all agree: "By faith Abraham obeyed...."
the question is: are we justified by faith prior to any works?
"But whatever in the justified
precedes or follows
the free gift of faith
is neither the basis of justification
nor merits it."
-The Vatican
It would not make any difference to me--that isn't the point.What difference would it make? You would still reject it because it would not affirm what you believe or what the rcc teaches.
Their standards change based on what doctrine we happen to be discussing I think.It would not make any difference to me--that isn't the point.
YOU are the Bible only Christian. I am holding you to YOUR standards, not mine.
Abraham was "what"?Abraham was.
You THINK? That is more a certainty than a thought!Their standards change based on what doctrine we happen to be discussing I think.
there are very few Bible only Christians here.You THINK? That is more a certainty than a thought!
Bible only Christians are Bible only when it suits, and Bible only Christians appeal to Tradition when it suits all the while claiming not to be appealing to Tradition!