Various from the Mormonism forum

[Theo1689]

In the Mormonism forum there is a combination of Mormon and non-Mormon posters. Understandably, the topics of discussion there are to revolve around the Mormon religion, but sometimes non-Mormons go on tangents and disagreements. I decided to bring a couple of them here.

The first question that came up is how to choose the "right" church.

My quick answer is to join a 1689 Reformed Baptist church.

But clearly, that answer is not going to sit well with everyone. So the longer answer is this...

First, have a good understanding of the Bible for yourself. Read books like "Mere Christianity" by Lewis or "Basic Christianity" by Stott, and similar books, to get an understanding of what Christian doctrines are pretty much universally agreed upon. You should come up with a list similar to:

- Sola Scriptura;
- Trinity;
- deity of Christ;
- monotheism;
- salvation by faith alone;

If your list is different, then that's fine for now. If you haven't already, familiarize with Christian radio pastors. I listen to John MacArthur ("Grace to You") and Alistair Begg ("Truth for Life"). Listen carefully to see if they offer citations for their teachings, and read the citations to make sure that they accurately mean what the pastor says.

I have other "no go" teachings, such as:

- women pastors;
- denial that homosexual acts are sinful;
- too much negative teaching of individuals or groups from the pulpit (eg. Steven Anderson/KJVO)

From that criteria, find a church and start attending.

In the meantime, study other issues which different denominations disagree upon, such as:

- infant baptism vs. believer baptism;
- sprinkling vs. immersion;
- 1 pastor vs. plurality of elders;
- Calvinism vs. Arminianism (vs. Pelagianism)
- etc.

As has been attributed to Augustine:
"In essentials, unity;
In non-essentials, liberty;
In all things, charity."

 

[Theo1689]

Another question given to me is whether Christians are sinless after they are saved. While there are 1 or 2 individuals here in the forums who actually believe they have become sinless, that is not generally what Christians believe.

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (KJV)

The KJV rendering sounds like it means we "stop sinning" after we are born of God. But I believe this is an inadequate rendering. Let's compare with a modern translation:

1John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. (ESV)

The ESV renders it, "makes a practice of sinning". This is consistent with the underlying Greek, which is in the present tense, but has continuous aspect, "continues to sin". In English, the time factor is more important, but in the Greek, the aspect is more important.

So while Christians continue to stumble and sin, it is no longer a "habit", or a "practice", we stumble into it, instead of desiring to jump head-long into it.

Another factor is that even though we still physically sin, God no longer SEES our sin, or attributes our sin to us, as that sin has been atoned for on the cross, and when God looks at us, He sees Christ's righteousness instead.

 

[Theo1689]

I think I forgot one question that @Fenuay asked....

IIRC, you took issue with Communion being practiced every month (and while I don't remember bringing that up, that is a common practice in Protestant churches).

I think a good argument can be made that communion should be practiced once per year, since it was the Passover Seder meal which was being eaten when Christ implemented the sacrament.

On the other end of the spectrum, Roman Catholics practice the sacrament weekly, and even daily. I think practicing it more frequently makes it less meaningful, just as singing the same hymn every week causes many people to stop thinking about the lyrics, since they become automatic.

I think monthly is a good compromise, although I wouldn't leave a church solely because they chose a different frequency. Scripture does say, "As often as you" do this, which seems to make the frequency somewhat open-ended.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

 

[Gary Mac]

In the Mormonism forum there is a combination of Mormon and non-Mormon posters. Understandably, the topics of discussion there are to revolve around the Mormon religion, but sometimes non-Mormons go on tangents and disagreements. I decided to bring a couple of them here.

The first question that came up is how to choose the "right" church.

My quick answer is to join a 1689 Reformed Baptist church.

But clearly, that answer is not going to sit well with everyone. So the longer answer is this...

First, have a good understanding of the Bible for yourself. Read books like "Mere Christianity" by Lewis or "Basic Christianity" by Stott, and similar books, to get an understanding of what Christian doctrines are pretty much universally agreed upon. You should come up with a list similar to:

- Sola Scriptura;
- Trinity;
- deity of Christ;
- monotheism;
- salvation by faith alone;

If your list is different, then that's fine for now. If you haven't already, familiarize with Christian radio pastors. I listen to John MacArthur ("Grace to You") and Alistair Begg ("Truth for Life"). Listen carefully to see if they offer citations for their teachings, and read the citations to make sure that they accurately mean what the pastor says.

I have other "no go" teachings, such as:

- women pastors;
- denial that homosexual acts are sinful;
- too much negative teaching of individuals or groups from the pulpit (eg. Steven Anderson/KJVO)

From that criteria, find a church and start attending.

In the meantime, study other issues which different denominations disagree upon, such as:

- infant baptism vs. believer baptism;
- sprinkling vs. immersion;
- 1 pastor vs. plurality of elders;
- Calvinism vs. Arminianism (vs. Pelagianism)
- etc.

As has been attributed to Augustine:
"In essentials, unity;
In non-essentials, liberty;
In all things, charity."

Join a church? You dont join Gods church, His church is as He is and like Him by the same SPirit be in you who was in Christ Jesus ands walk as He walks in His same light.

You are trying to get God to obey you so He may join your church.

You say --" First, have a good understanding of the Bible for yourself. Read books like "Mere Christianity" by Lewis or "Basic Christianity" by Stott, and similar books, to get an understanding of what Christian doctrines are pretty much universally agreed upon. You should come up with a list similar to:

Actually instead of reading these OPINIONS about God, it would do you well to read what Jesus said you should be and would be if you actually followed him to the Father that you would receieve from Him that what he received from Him and in that -- when or if you ever do see Him as He is -- ye shall be like Him instead of these. 1 John 3. But you knw and I know you will not listen to Jesus but these who glorify as an authority instead of God Himself who is unable to deliver His message to you that you would see Him as He is and become like Him instead of these.

So in reality you are no different from a Mormon, Catholic, Muslim, Baptists, AOG, COC, Pentecostal, or any other religious belief system, just different laws to govern your beliefs of a god.

 

[Gary Mac]

Another question given to me is whether Christians are sinless after they are saved. While there are 1 or 2 individuals here in the forums who actually believe they have become sinless, that is not generally what Christians believe.

Actually it isnt a belief at all, it is the reality of God manifest in us -- and we who are born of God it is impossible to be in sin. 1 John 3:9. You cant know that what you dont have and your Christian belief system is keeping you from His perfections as He demands of you. You dont realize that in Christ there is no sin, it is outside of Christ that you are the sinner. You never have met the Christ have you?

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (KJV)

The KJV rendering sounds like it means we "stop sinning" after we are born of God. But I believe this is an inadequate rendering. Let's compare with a modern translation:

It sounds that way to you because of lack in being born of God yourself. Your beliefs as you say will not allow you to be born of God that you may be perfect as He is perfect as Jesus commanded of you.

Modern translation? You mean the edited editions from lack in God being manifest in you?

1John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. (ESV)

Practice sinning? SO you do not believe that god takes away the sins of this world is why it is a practice for you. Sorry but you can practice not to sin all your life but by law I guarantee you will fail miserably.

The real truth is He takes away the sins of this world and in Him it is impossible to be in sin. You just cant relate to Him is all.

The ESV renders it, "makes a practice of sinning". This is consistent with the underlying Greek, which is in the present tense, but has continuous aspect, "continues to sin". In English, the time factor is more important, but in the Greek, the aspect is more important.

With the manifestation of God in you it would come clear that you really do not know what sin is. Sin is simply separation from God. And beware of anything that will separate your oneness with Him in which you have done, separated yourself totally from Him in His righteousness.

So while Christians continue to stumble and sin, it is no longer a "habit", or a "practice", we stumble into it, instead of desiring to jump head-long into it.

Not we, only You, for we in Christ are the righteousness of God who is without sin.

Another factor is that even though we still physically sin, God no longer SEES our sin, or attributes our sin to us, as that sin has been atoned for on the cross, and when God looks at us, He sees Christ's righteousness instead.

But we ion Christ it is impossible to be ibn sin. You say you are of Christ yet a sinner, that makes your Christ a sinner doesnt it?

Atonement is giving up your life over to God that He may be your mind, your SPirit, your walk as He walks in His same light, perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Atonement is paid for with your own life to receive His as your own, in which you are totally opposed to and it is very obvious your life as a sinner is much more sacred to you than to have His way, His truth, and His life, to live it yourself and Jesus was very clear, no one come to the Father but his way. And It is very obvious that you are totally antichrist by all these accusations against His righteousness which is without sin. . You comment about a subject that you know noting of.

 

[Gary Mac]

I think I forgot one question that @Fenuay asked....

IIRC, you took issue with Communion being practiced every month (and while I don't remember bringing that up, that is a common practice in Protestant churches).

I think a good argument can be made that communion should be practiced once per year, since it was the Passover Seder meal which was being eaten when Christ implemented the sacrament.

On the other end of the spectrum, Roman Catholics practice the sacrament weekly, and even daily. I think practicing it more frequently makes it less meaningful, just as singing the same hymn every week causes many people to stop thinking about the lyrics, since they become automatic.

I think monthly is a good compromise, although I wouldn't leave a church solely because they chose a different frequency. Scripture does say, "As often as you" do this, which seems to make the frequency somewhat open-ended.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

Communion is a 24-7 if He is in you and you in Him are one as Jesus was on in Him. It isnt someting we doo once a week once a month or once a year. Either He is in you and you are in Him as one and have His same mind and walk in it as Her walks in it or you dont and follow the traditions of some religious belief system where there is actually no communion with God at all, and the mercy seat is out the window, the place God and man come together as one.

There is no communion with God by eating a cracker and a sip of wine, or dunked in a tub of water, or circumcised or any other man made ritual for a belief, either you have His same mind, Spirit, disposition or you do not. And it is clear we both know the answer to that dont we?

 

[rstrats]

Sin is simply separation from God.

God who is without sin.

So He is without separation from Himself.

 

[Gary Mac]

So He is without separation from Himself.

Seriously, to be of God is to be without sin. If you are a sinner you are separated from the One who takes away sin. He takes away the sins of this world in all who is of Him.

If you are a sinner see 1 John 3, it tells plainly who you adhere to.
If you are born of God you adhere to Him and it is impossible to be in sin 1 John 3:9.

Is it really that difficult to understand that you would make such a comment?

 

[rstrats]

Is it really that difficult to understand that you would make such a comment?

Sin is not the separation from the supreme being; the separation is the result of sin. Sin itself is lawlessness (1 John 3:4).

 

[Gary Mac]

Sin is not the separation from the supreme being; the separation is the result of sin. Sin itself is lawlessness (1 John 3:4).

Actually sin is result from that separation. Killing stealing, chasing the neighbors wife is not the sin, only the results from that seperation from the God who is Love, for if you were of His Love to have His same mind, these things whouldnt even be a consideration would they?

 

[Fenuay]

Actually sin is result from that separation. Killing stealing, chasing the neighbors wife is not the sin, only the results from that seperation from the God who is Love, for if you were of His Love to have His same mind, these things whouldnt even be a consideration would they?

People drive and get irritated at the driver who cuts them off. People get mad when the drive through is long or when Starbucks is out of your favorite drink. We get angry at those who hurt or upset our children. All of those things are technically sin. So no human being is sinless. With the blood of the lamb our sins are washed away and God sees us as sinless. Even when we fall short Jesus blood still covers us and the Father sees our new self in Christ. But we still sin. It's part of being a human.

 

[Fenuay]

man did not lose eden because of baby sins as this.

I agree with you. But the point is that all humans sin regardless of how some Christians wish to interpret the Scriptures and that a Christian does not sin.

 

[Gary Mac]

People drive and get irritated at the driver who cuts them off. People get mad when the drive through is long or when Starbucks is out of your favorite drink. We get angry at those who hurt or upset our children. All of those things are technically sin.

Yes by the law yes, but if one has the same disposition that of God to be anointed of Him, which is Love, one will not get these frustrations that is attached to this world that you may suffer the frustrations of the flesh man.

You really do not know that God is Love nor to have his dis[position, that is very clear in your laws for your frustrations and impatience your flesh man imposes on you. And yes for you they are sin. But to God they are result from being detached from Him.

So no human being is sinless.

That is exactly why we who are born of God who is not flesh, is not human, are sinless for we are not of this world, we are of His Spirit that is not of this world. You really do not understand that so obvious in your assessment for sin.

Jesus was made to be sin because of his flesh man and identification with it and by it was crucified as a blasphemer because of his flesh man. But he was made to be sinless because by identification with the One who is not of this world but is of Spirit and holiness of Love to be his own disposition just as we all are of Love who has from God His same Spirit of Love.

With the blood of the lamb our sins are washed away and God sees us as sinless.

God sees us sinless when we become like Him to know this difference. Gen 3;22. Jesus received this difference in Matt 3:16, Abraham did, Moses did, Mary did, 1230 did and so did I. He never has changed one inkling. his abode has always been in ma, the mercy seat, the place God and man come together as one. You just havent reached that place it is very obvious ibn your assessment for sin.

In reality He tales away the sins of this world 1 John 3 -- and we who are born of God it is impossible to be in sin. 1 John 3:9.

Even when we fall short Jesus blood still covers us and the Father sees our new self in Christ. But we still sin. It's part of being a human.

We who has from God, born of God, that what Jesus had from Him cannot fall short at all, and is impossible to be in sin 1 John 3:9, and is not part of being human at all, it is about His kingdom that doesnt come with observation but is within you. See Jesus in Luke 17:20-21.

Most as yourself do not believe Jesus in that though.

 

[Fenuay]

Yes by the law yes, but if one has the same disposition that of God to be anointed of Him, which is Love, one will not get these frustrations that is attached to this world that you may suffer the frustrations of the flesh man.

You really do not know that God is Love nor to have his dis[position, that is very clear in your laws for your frustrations and impatience your flesh man imposes on you. And yes for you they are sin. But to God they are result from being detached from Him.

That is exactly why we who are born of God who is not flesh, is not human, are sinless for we are not of this world, we are of His Spirit that is not of this world. You really do not understand that so obvious in your assessment for sin.

Jesus was made to be sin because of his flesh man and identification with it and by it was crucified as a blasphemer because of his flesh man. But he was made to be sinless because by identification with the One who is not of this world but is of Spirit and holiness of Love to be his own disposition just as we all are of Love who has from God His same Spirit of Love.

God sees us sinless when we become like Him to know this difference. Gen 3;22. Jesus received this difference in Matt 3:16, Abraham did, Moses did, Mary did, 1230 did and so did I. He never has changed one inkling. his abode has always been in ma, the mercy seat, the place God and man come together as one. You just havent reached that place it is very obvious ibn your assessment for sin.

In reality He tales away the sins of this world 1 John 3 -- and we who are born of God it is impossible to be in sin. 1 John 3:9.

We who has from God, born of God, that what Jesus had from Him cannot fall short at all, and is impossible to be in sin 1 John 3:9, and is not part of being human at all, it is about His kingdom that doesnt come with observation but is within you. See Jesus in Luke 17:20-21.

Most as yourself do not believe Jesus in that though.

I do not agree. I think you are misinterpreting the scriptures. I believe that when we trust in Christ as our savior we make every effort not to sin. But on occasion it happens. And we feel grieved and we repent. God the Father still sees us as sinless because we have been saved, washed in Jesus blood and Jesus will not lose one of His flock.

May I ask if you ever sin?

 

[Fenuay]

this very body is the FLESH !

Exactly. And flesh sins.

 

[Gary Mac]

I do not agree. I think you are misinterpreting the scriptures. I believe that when we trust in Christ as our savior we make every effort not to sin. But on occasion it happens. And we feel grieved and we repent. God the Father still sees us as sinless because we have been saved, washed in Jesus blood and Jesus will not lose one of His flock.

May I ask if you ever sin?

I understand, Your attempt to not sin fails miserably doesn it? You believe that when you trust in Christ and say you follow him in his ways yet on occasion are the sinner makes the one you say you follow a sinner doesnt it?

But we who are born of God to be like Him who is without sin as Jesus was of and born of God, there is noting at all to grieve nor repent of for it is impossible to be in sin. 1 John 3:9. If you are the sinner as you say then you are of 1 John 3:8, it tells clearly who you are of.

God sees us sinlees when we become like Him to know this difference, and when you do see Him as He is ye shall be like Him, not as the sinner, 1 John 3.

You ask if me who is of Christ ever sins, how can I say I am of Christ yet the sinner? If I say I am of Christ yet the sinner then that makes me a liar along with the One who is without sin. If I say I am wihout sin and do not have Christ as my own disposition then I am the liar.

Christ means to be anointed of God, Ghods anointed. Christ in me is Gods anointing in me jiust as Jesus was Gods anointied by the same mind be in me who was in Christ Jesus.

The real problem in your assesment as a sinner is you have not been thorough in repentance form sin to walk as He walks in His same light that is without sin. And I know your thoughts, it is impossoble for you to be perfect even as your Fatyher inheaven is perfect as Jesus commandes of you -- right?

Ask yourself why his way in perfection is not possible for you

 

[Fenuay]

I understand, Your attempt to not sin fails miserably doesn it? You believe that when you trust in Christ and say you follow him in his ways yet on occasion are the sinner makes the one you say you follow a sinner doesnt it?

But we who are born of God to be like Him who is without sin as Jesus was of and born of God, there is noting at all to grieve nor repent of for it is impossible to be in sin. 1 John 3:9. If you are the sinner as you say then you are of 1 John 3:8, it tells clearly who you are of.

God sees us sinlees when we become like Him to know this difference, and when you do see Him as He is ye shall be like Him, not as the sinner, 1 John 3.

You ask if me who is of Christ ever sins, how can I say I am of Christ yet the sinner? If I say I am of Christ yet the sinner then that makes me a liar along with the One who is without sin. If I say I am wihout sin and do not have Christ as my own disposition then I am the liar.

Christ means to be anointed of God, Ghods anointed. Christ in me is Gods anointing in me jiust as Jesus was Gods anointied by the same mind be in me who was in Christ Jesus.

The real problem in your assesment as a sinner is you have not been thorough in repentance form sin to walk as He walks in His same light that is without sin. And I know your thoughts, it is impossoble for you to be perfect even as your Fatyher inheaven is perfect as Jesus commandes of you -- right?

Ask yourself why his way in perfection is not possible for you

Romans 3:23​

King James Version​

​

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


1 John 1:8 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

King James Version (KJV)

 

[Gary Mac]

Romans 3:23​

King James Version​

​

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Agreed, Sinned has an ED at the end, past participle. But we who have been born of God, born again of His Spirit, it is impossible to be in sin isnt it. 1 John 3:9.

May I ask why you are an advocate for sin instead of the righteousness of God in Christ?

 

[Fenuay]

Agreed, Sinned has an ED at the end, past participle. But we who have been born of God,m born again of His SPirit, it is impossible to be in sin isnt it. 1 John 3:9.

May I ask why you are an advocate for sin instead of the righteousness of God in Christ?

1 John 1:8 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

King James Version (KJV)

I am advocating the truth. As you see by this scripture. Your belief seems to imply that the sacrifice of the Son was meaningless since we can just choose to not sin. The Bible is clear that all man sins. The natural man is an enemy of God. But the salvation of Christ saves us. We do not save ourselves. If we were able to be sinless we would have no need of salvation. And repentance would be a one time thing.

 

[Gary Mac]

Agreed, Sinned has an ED at the end, past participle. But we who have been born of God, born again of His Spirit, it is impossible to be in sin isnt it. 1 John 3:9.

May I ask why you are an advocate for sin instead of the righteousness of God in Christ?

BTW, that is exactly why I follow the way of Jesus and not Paul.