Vatican defrocks US Cardinal for sexual misconduct....

Bonnie

Well-known member

I also saw an article in today's paper that JPII may have been too hastily beatified after he died, because he swept under the rug the allegations against McCarrick, instead telling him to keep a low profile, or something similar. I cannot cut and paste from the online newspaper.

Here is something about this:

Pope John Paul II knew of the extensive abuse allegations against American cardinal Theodore McCarrick but still promoted him to archbishop in Washington DC, a Vatican investigation has found.

McCarrick, 90, was defrocked by Francis last year after decades of allegations that the globe-trotting envoy had sexually molested adults as well as children.

The Vatican took the extraordinary step Tuesday of publishing its two-year, 400-plus-page internal investigation into the prelate’s rise and fall. It details how McCarrick often shared a bed at his New Jersey home with teenagers he made call him ‘uncle Ted’ and puts the lion’s share of blame on a dead saint: Pope John Paul II.


this pretty much jives with what was in the newspaper. But it also pointed out the dangers of beatifying a dead pope too quickly and noted that no one who had been beatified in the CC had ever been UNbeatified. I think that is what it said. How would the CC even go about doing that?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member

I also saw an article in today's paper that JPII may have been too hastily beatified after he died, because he swept under the rug the allegations against McCarrick, instead telling him to keep a low profile, or something similar. I cannot cut and paste from the online newspaper.

Here is something about this:




this pretty much jives with what was in the newspaper. But it also pointed out the dangers of beatifying a dead pope too quickly and noted that no one who had been beatified in the CC had ever been UNbeatified. I think that is what it said. How would the CC even go about doing that?
Beatification doesn't mean that the person never sinned and, assuming that Pope St John Paul II did know about these allegations but did nothing about them, doesn't automatically mean that he is not in heaven.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Beatification doesn't mean that the person never sinned and, assuming that Pope St John Paul II did know about these allegations but did nothing about them, doesn't automatically mean that he is not in heaven.
Who ever claimed that NOT sinning is what is required for beatification? We ALL sin!

But does a pontiff deserve beatification if he refused to face facts about a cardinal who molested children for decades? Even though he was shown proof? Besides, we don't even know if JPII is in heaven, since he seems to have put more faith in Jesus' mother to save him, that in Jesus Christ Himself.

Why is there even a beatification process of anyone, anyway?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Who ever claimed that NOT sinning is what is required for beatification? We ALL sin!

But does a pontiff deserve beatification if he refused to face facts about a cardinal who molested children for decades? Even though he was shown proof?
Maybe. We don't know what precisely he knew, what he was thinking, how well he was thinking and what happened to him afterwards. That's what I mean by saying that he could still be beatified but have sinned in this area.
Besides, we don't even know if JPII is in heaven, since he seems to have put more faith in Jesus' mother to save him, that in Jesus Christ Himself.
You evidently don't know him very well.
Why is there even a beatification process of anyone, anyway?
Because the communion of saints is a very important reality in the Church.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Maybe. We don't know what precisely he knew, what he was thinking, how well he was thinking and what happened to him afterwards. That's what I mean by saying that he could still be beatified but have sinned in this area.

You evidently don't know him very well.

Because the communion of saints is a very important reality in the Church.
Then why, when he was shot, did JPII call out "My mother, my mother!" instead of "Lord Jesus, save me?" And didn't he want Mary's name on his coffin, when he died?

I agree that the communion of saints is important, but that is NOT the same thing as the commun-ication of saints!

The whole beatification thing is ridiculous, anyway, since ALL true believers in Jesus Christ are saints--and we don't need some heterodoxical church to make us saints. JESUS does.

 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Then why, when he was shot, did JPII call out "My mother, my mother!" instead of "Lord Jesus, save me?" And didn't he want Mary's name on his coffin, when he died?
Maybe it was that response to maternal protection when someone is in mortal danger. What about his evident love and trust in Jesus all his life?
 

balshan

Well-known member
Beatification doesn't mean that the person never sinned and, assuming that Pope St John Paul II did know about these allegations but did nothing about them, doesn't automatically mean that he is not in heaven.
Doesn't mean he is. If he did love and trust Jesus, he would have had the courage to do the right thing.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Who ever claimed that NOT sinning is what is required for beatification? We ALL sin!

But does a pontiff deserve beatification if he refused to face facts about a cardinal who molested children for decades? Even though he was shown proof? Besides, we don't even know if JPII is in heaven, since he seems to have put more faith in Jesus' mother to save him, that in Jesus Christ Himself.

Why is there even a beatification process of anyone, anyway?
Excellent post.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Maybe. We don't know what precisely he knew, what he was thinking, how well he was thinking and what happened to him afterwards. That's what I mean by saying that he could still be beatified but have sinned in this area.

You evidently don't know him very well.

Because the communion of saints is a very important reality in the Church.
You didn't know him very well.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Maybe it was that response to maternal protection when someone is in mortal danger. What about his evident love and trust in Jesus all his life?
Really you are implying he was yelling out to his earthly mother. He evidently did not trust Jesus at that point in time.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Doesn't mean he is. If he did love and trust Jesus, he would have had the courage to do the right thing.
I don't think it's our place to presume how someone might act under certain conditions (which we don't fully know). But even if we did, I don't think that means we can judge whether the person loved and trusted Jesus.
 

balshan

Well-known member
I don't think it's our place to presume how someone might act under certain conditions (which we don't fully know). But even if we did, I don't think that means we can judge whether the person loved and trusted Jesus.
I think we can presume how a believer might act under certain conditions. First he would ask himself what would Jesus do. These children are a gift from God. Being pro life I know their life is extremely important. Jesus said to expose sin. Scripture is a big help when faced with these conditons. I might think he would turn to the Holy Spirit and seek an answer, the Spirit would not hide evil. But no problem within the RCC one pope a saint hid sin and the other defrocked the cardinal. Both have the same titles, both meant to be lead by the Holy Spirit in matters of truth and moral. Different answers.
 

balshan

Well-known member
If she is not your mother, then how can you be a sister of Christ?
Because God is my father. Mary is not relation except to Jesus.

Eph 1:5

he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

No mention of Mary.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
I think we can presume how a believer might act under certain conditions. First he would ask himself what would Jesus do. These children are a gift from God. Being pro life I know their life is extremely important. Jesus said to expose sin. Scripture is a big help when faced with these conditons. I might think he would turn to the Holy Spirit and seek an answer, the Spirit would not hide evil. But no problem within the RCC one pope a saint hid sin and the other defrocked the cardinal. Both have the same titles, both meant to be lead by the Holy Spirit in matters of truth and moral. Different answers.
So, you believe he didn't love and trust Jesus?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Because God is my father. Mary is not relation except to Jesus.

Eph 1:5

he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

No mention of Mary.
How is Mary not related to you? If you are Jesus' sister and Mary is Jesus' mother, she is also your mother. As we see in John's Gospel, Jesus gave his mother to his "beloved disciple" - that is, to all of us.
 

balshan

Well-known member
So, you believe he didn't love and trust Jesus?
Not his first thought when shot. That to me means Jesus was not first in his thoughts. But as to whether he is saved or not, I have no clues. But his being made a saint shows the stupidity of praying to saints.
 

balshan

Well-known member
How is Mary not related to you? If you are Jesus' sister and Mary is Jesus' mother, she is also your mother. As we see in John's Gospel, Jesus gave his mother to his "beloved disciple" - that is, to all of us.
Not related to me is clear. She is not my mother at all in any way. Adopted by God who is not married to Mary, so no she is my sister in Christ not my mother. That is a load of RC hogwash.
 
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