jonathan_hili
Well-known member
Because that would be a hasty generalisation. It's like asking: Why not believe X is lying because everyone else can lie?
You need to take each case on its own merits.
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You need to take each case on its own merits.
Exactly, because if everyone else can lie so can the Pope, so I'm not generalizing. I am describing a normal and natural human attribute, to which all human beings are susceptible.
You are the one who is generalizing because you include everyone except the Roman Catholic Church.
Of course anyone can lie that is why courts demand evidence.
jonathan_hili
Well-known member
Who is saying that the pope can't lie? That's different, though, from calling someone a liar simply because of their political position.
But you do when you say he and his mates make infallible judgements, you have no prove of those.
jonathan_hili
Well-known member
We believe that Jesus would protect his Church from doctrinal error and established the teaching authority (or magisterium) of the Church to do so. For proof, I'd cite some verses in scripture, the history of the Church and the reasonableness of the proposition.
So do you think claiming to be the Vicar of Christ is political? And do you think claiming to be infallible is political? And do you think that both of those claims are not lies anyway??
What you say here is irrelevant unless you can show that the Roman Catholic church is the church of Jesus, so don't ask us to take too much for granted before you make any claims.
I cannot find any scriptures which show that the Roman Catholic church is the church of Jesus. The only ostensible evidence I can find is the claims of the selfsame Roman Catholic Church. So apart from scriptures which cannot be produced, you're asking me for evidence from the Roman Catholic church itself.
Jeus said : if I bear witness of myself my witness is not true.
So perhaps we could start by quoting that particular scripture
If you think that Jesus would protect his church from error how come your curch teaches Heresy? No point in using circular reasoning as if we have to take the doctrines of your church for granted. To coin a phrase, you are putting the cart before the horse asking us to take it for granted that your church is not in error, but first you have to prove that.
There are no scriptures in existence which say that the Roman Catholic churches the church of Jesus.
Jesus would protect His Church but your institution is not his church and is in doctrinal error. He did not establish your evil leadership group. I believe it is an insult to say His church has anything at all to do with your scandal filled institution. The evils perpetrated by your institution are numerous.
You can not quote verses in scripture as proof.
So as I said no proof. You cited nothing at all.
You have basically a man saying I am infallible on these matters. This announcement is infallible. I offer no proof of being infallible but you will now believe me and follow what I say when I am being infallible. Yep, you would need to be gullible to believe that.
Exactly. The Pope expects us to take him on his own merits, but those merits were decided long after Jesus died, was resurrected and ascended, and they simply transfer those lies back to the time of Jesus and the apostles to try and make it look the same.
Papal infallibility in 1870. Can you imagine? So suddenly after 1870 years the Pope is infallible. That's a classic example of what I'm trying to say here, because they will now lie and say that it was always the same since Peter.
They're like a bunch of adults trying to convince a 4-year old that a fairy story is really true. And that's only because they believe it themselves.
jonathan_hili
Well-known member
I don't think being the Vicar of Christ or any religious leader within the Church is predominantly political but it certainly has a political aspect. How can you stand for an alternative kingdom and system of morals and not touch the political dimension of human existence, especially at a societal level.
As the head of Vatican state, the pope is a political figure, though this is more an accident of history than something intrinsic to being bishop of Rome.
The pope being infallible is a religious not political doctrine.
jonathan_hili
Well-known member
I agree. However, I'm not trying to prove my point, just explain it.
I know well enough that this kind of forum isn't really conducive to discussing biblical evidence. Furthermore, I'm sure any evidence I produce can be counter-evidenced or just fudged away. However, I'd basically argue on these kind of lines:
a) Jesus established a Church. - from scripture
b) Jesus' Church had authority structures, with certain offices of leadership. - from scripture and history
c) Jesus would have intended his Church (and hence the authority structures) to continue historically. - from reason
d) The Catholic Church can evidence its authority structures back to the first century. - from history
e) The Catholic Church can evidence a continuity of most dogma back to the first/early second centuries. - from scripture and history
f) The only other possible Churches that can sustain such an argument might be the Orthodox and Coptic Churches. - from scripture, history and reason
g) So, it is quite reasonable that the Catholic Church is the one started by Christ.
jonathan_hili
Well-known member
The Catholic Church doesn't teach heresy. It's because Protestants are essentially - though not culpably - heretics that they believe Catholic doctrine is heretical.
But you are automatically supposing that he is the Vicar of Christ, in other words you believe his false claims. Taking something for granted will never make it true and believing something false will never make it true.
And of course claiming to be the Vicar of Christ is not political because Jesus himself was not a politician.
Of course your belief in the Pope and what he claims is not hurting other people who don't believe him, because they know that it's fake. You are really hurting yourself.
The Catholic church teaches Heresy because papal infallibility is heresy, the immaculate conception of Mary the mother of Jesus is heresy, the Assumption of Mary is Heresy, praying to the dead is heresy.
You are like the pope. You're just trying to make things true because you say so.
jonathan_hili
Well-known member
I'm not automatically supposing that the pope is the Vicar of Christ, I've come to that conclusion throughout my life.
You can be political without being a politician, e.g. Martin Luther King Jnr.
Then I shall live happily in my masochism.
jonathan_hili
Well-known member
What makes papal infallibility heresy? Or the Immaculate Conception? Or the Assumption?
How would you define "heresy"?
You know that the pope is the head of a church and not just a head of state, so he is not the same as your regular head of state, because he's making a pile of false claims about himself that normal politicians don't make.
You have to answer the same question when you call the Protestants heretics.