War in heaven.

Josheb

Well-known member
1. Of all the angels, why was it Michael who fought Satan and threw him and his angels out of heaven?
As far as I know scripture does not provide an explicit answer to why it was Michael and not JC or Gabriel, or some other angel (messenger), so any answer we might offer will be speculative..... but the answer likely lies in the the scriptural fact Michael is an archangel (Jude 1:9), and "aarchaggelos" or "chief angel," "ruler of angels," or "superior angel".
2. Did this happen before creation week? If not, when did it happen, or when will it happen?
Since angels are created beings, AND everything God made in the "creation week" was deemed very good, we necessarily understand this fight happened after the first six days. Rebellion and war are not good. God would not have deemed or declared them such upon His survey.
3. Does Satan and his angels still have access to God's throne?
Depends upon what you mean by "access". Job tells us the "sons of God" are summoned before God and satan is among them. Jude, however, tells us those angels who did not keep their proper abode have been "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day," and will suffer "vengeance of eternal fire." Both passages provide context to Jesus' report satan roams the earth. Apparently, even though he roams the earth he does not roam freely. He roams held in bondage, his destiny is decided, and he comes when he is summoned until then.
4. In context what is chapter 12 and 13 about? That may help answer these questions.
That deserves a separate thread because the various eschatological views are going to have different answers. Some modern futurists (those influenced by the Dispensational pov) are not going to agree that fight is in the past. They are going to see it as a yet future event. I will suggest the Rev. 12 account is about Luke 10:18. Otherwise we have to explain how satan can be cast down, then return, and then have to be cast down twice. Is God not able to cast someone out for good? Jesus saw him cast out of heaven. What casting down might that have been? If the tradition saying satan is the former angel Lucifer is true, then Isaiah 14 is the event when satan was cast down or out of heaven and the event to which Jesus is referencing in Luke 10 and Revelation 12.



Everyone should understand that the language of "war," "rebellion," or any other reference to conflict has a context to which we should ALL concede: that of The ALMIGHTY Sovereign Creator God. These words have meaning, or at least they are supposed to have meaning and we're supposed to think, speak, write, and act in a manner consistent with the meaning of those words. No one defies God one fraction of a nanosecond longer than He permits!!! He is the creator; all others are created creatures. He is Infinite; all others are finite. He is ALL mighty, and the creature has no might but that which was given it. The finite creature's rebellion is analogous to a child shooting spit-wads at the armor of an M-1 tank. The tank doesn't even know it's being assaulted 🥱. God is impervious to the machinations of the creature. He spoke the creature into existence, and He can speak the creature out of existence, and He can speak the creature out of existence in such a manner no record of the creature's ever having existed remains.

Instantaneously.

This is presuppositional. So all this talk of conflict in the Bible occurs solely within the context of the Creator creating with intent and all He created serving His purpose(s) and His alone. Whatever the purpose the creature may believe s/he has, it never exists apart from the purpose of the Creator. God is sovereign even over sin.
 

Oseas

Member
Everyone should understand that the language of "war," "rebellion," or any other reference to conflict has a context to which we should ALL concede: that of The ALMIGHTY Sovereign Creator God. These words have meaning, or at least they are supposed to have meaning and we're supposed to think, speak, write, and act in a manner consistent with the meaning of those words. No one defies God one fraction of a nanosecond longer than He permits!!! He is the creator; all others are created creatures. He is Infinite; all others are finite. He is ALL mighty, and the creature has no might but that which was given it. The finite creature's rebellion is analogous to a child shooting spit-wads at the armor of an M-1 tank. The tank doesn't even know it's being assaulted 🥱. God is impervious to the machinations of the creature. He spoke the creature into existence, and He can speak the creature out of existence, and He can speak the creature out of existence in such a manner no record of the creature's ever having existed remains.

Instantaneously.

This is presuppositional. So all this talk of conflict in the Bible occurs solely within the context of the Creator creating with intent and all He created serving His purpose(s) and His alone. Whatever the purpose the creature may believe s/he has, it never exists apart from the purpose of the Creator. God is sovereign even over sin.
For example Isaiah 1
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken; (yeah, THE LORD HAS SPOKEN- THE WORD IS GOD) Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Why should ye be stricken any more?

The Word is GOD, the Word is from everlasting to everlasting,
but the words above GOD would manifest them to Isaiah around 2750 years ago. See, GOD - the Word - in His Omniscience already knew previously that when the rebellious people of Israel, descendants of Abraham, arrived in that space of time, in the time of Uzziah, and Ahaz, and Hezekiah, they would be a sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters, as they still are today. Simultaneously, in the same period of time, the Word- GOD - made be born a special MAN -Isaiah - that means The Lord is Salvation - to preach these words revealed to him from the Word-GOD-, that is from heaven.

Be careful and get ready, because the ETERNAL PUNISHMENT of the wicked nations just started and it WILL NEVER END, but never, for everlasting time. Woe of the inhabitants of the earth, the great day of GOD's wrath is come, that is the seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, or seventh and last millennium.

Jewish Calendar - How to explain the difference of exactly 240 years in the Jewish calendar?

The Jewish calendar is the type of calendar that the Jewish people use for counting time and commemorating birthdays, festivities, weddings, deaths, religious celebrations and other solemnities. According to the Hebrews, the years are counted from what they believe to be the creation of Adam...
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Josheb

Well-known member
For example Isaiah 1
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken; (yeah, THE LORD HAS SPOKEN- THE WORD IS GOD) Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Why should ye be stricken any more?

The Word is GOD, the Word is from everlasting to everlasting,
but the words above GOD would manifest them to Isaiah around 2750 years ago. See, GOD - the Word - in His Omniscience already knew previously that when the rebellious people of Israel, descendants of Abraham, arrived in that space of time, in the time of Uzziah, and Ahaz, and Hezekiah, they would be a sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters, as they still are today. Simultaneously, in the same period of time, the Word- GOD - made be born a special MAN -Isaiah - that means The Lord is Salvation - to preach these words revealed to him from the Word-GOD-, that is from heaven.

Be careful and get ready, because the ETERNAL PUNISHMENT of the wicked nations just started and it WILL NEVER END, but never, for everlasting time. Woe of the inhabitants of the earth, the great day of GOD's wrath is come, that is the seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, or seventh and last millennium.

Jewish Calendar - How to explain the difference of exactly 240 years in the Jewish calendar?

The Jewish calendar is the type of calendar that the Jewish people use for counting time and commemorating birthdays, festivities, weddings, deaths, religious celebrations and other solemnities. According to the Hebrews, the years are counted from what they believe to be the creation of Adam...
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What does the New Testament say about the Isaiah 1 text just quoted?
 

Josheb

Well-known member
You know what, so why are you asking? What is the intention of your spirit?
The discussion of whole scripture.

Isaiah 1:18 KJV
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Acts 17:2
And according to Paul’s custom, he visited them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures...

Acts 17:11
Now these people were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Acts 19:8
And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.



Back then the only or main scripture the new convert to Christ had was what we call the Old Testament, but the gospels and the epistles were quickly added to the canon of Christian scripture. This is very clear from Peter's comments about Paul's letters.

2 Peter 3:14-18
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.


It is common for Christians of certain theological perspectives to emphasize the Old Testament, especially in the area of the prophets. There's nothing wrong with reading and applying the prophets when considered in the light of all scripture. Jesus, James, John, Paul, and Peter were all quoting the OT often and repeatedly, but they invariably did so in a manner much differently that the Jews did, often not literally. One of the consequences to be avoided is the Judaization of Christianity. We are Christians, not Jews. Whenever we read something in the Old we should always ask ourselves, "What does the newer revelation say about this?" or "What has God later revealed about these words?" and we should never shy away from doing so. Others have a suspicion or disdain for the premise of "reasoning through scripture" because man's reasoning is flawed and fleshly but if you and I have the Spirit of God dwelling within then we also have the mind of Christ and can know the mind of God. We can reason rightly and we can judge all things rightly. That does not mean we will, only that such a thing is possible. If when mistakes are made they should not be avoided; they are a necessary, part of iron sharpening iron and the use of whole scripture ala 2 Tim. 3:16-17. These things are especially is especially so if the goal is faithfulness to the whole of God's word and the unity of the brethren having integrity with that word.

Therefore, let me ask my question again.

What does the New Testament say about the Isaiah 1 text that was quoted?


And while you're at it, since you broached the matter, why are you asking these questions and what is the intention of your heart?
 
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Oseas

Member
The discussion of whole scripture.

Isaiah 1:18 KJV
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Acts 17:2
And according to Paul’s custom, he visited them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures...

Acts 17:11
Now these people were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Acts 19:8
And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.



Back then the only or main scripture the new convert to Christ had was what we call the Old Testament, but the gospels and the epistles were quickly added to the canon of Christian scripture. This is very clear from Peter's comments about Paul's letters.

2 Peter 3:14-18
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.


It is common for Christians of certain theological perspectives to emphasize the Old Testament, especially in the area of the prophets. There's nothing wrong with reading and applying the prophets when considered in the light of all scripture. Jesus, James, John, Paul, and Peter were all quoting the OT often and repeatedly, but they invariably did so in a manner much differently that the Jews did, often not literally. One of the consequences to be avoided is the Judaization of Christianity. We are Christians, not Jews. Whenever we read something in the Old we should always ask ourselves, "What does the newer revelation say about this?" or "What has God later revealed about these words?" and we should never shy away from doing so. Others have a suspicion or disdain for the premise of "reasoning through scripture" because man's reasoning is flawed and fleshly but if you and I have the Spirit of God dwelling within then we also have the mind of Christ and can know the mind of God. We can reason rightly and we can judge all things rightly. That does not mean we will, only that such a thing is possible. If when mistakes are made they should not be avoided; they are a necessary, part of iron sharpening iron and the use of whole scripture ala 2 Tim. 3:16-17. These things are especially is especially so if the goal is faithfulness to the whole of God's word and the unity of the brethren having integrity with that word.

Therefore, let me ask my question again.

What does the New Testament say about the Isaiah 1 text that was quoted?


And while you're at it, since you broached the matter, why are you asking these questions and what is the intention of your heart?
Matthew 15:v.7-9 among many other Scriptures, say more accurately about Isaiah 1.

JESUS said:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 

Josheb

Well-known member
Matthew 15:v.7-9 among many other Scriptures, say more accurately about Isaiah 1.

JESUS said:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
I appreciate that. I think you're on the correct track, but in the Matthew 15:7-9 verses Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 29, not Isaiah 1.

Let's do a little review. This op asks about the "war in heaven" mentioned in Revelation 12. In my op-reply I added commentary about the true nature of "war" with God because a God as powerful as the God of the Bible doesn't really have any resistance. That language is intended for our understanding of God's abilities and our lack thereof. You responded with a portion of Isaiah 1 and I have asked what the New Testament says about Isaiah 1, not Isaiah 29. And I asked so the whole of scripture could be brought to bear on the text, and we (you, me, and whatever lurkers there might be) can understand Isaiah 1 through the newer revelation as Christians and may have some corporate unity and agreement with whole scripture.

Let me, therefore, ask my question once again: What does the New Testament say about the Isaiah 1 text you quoted?

For example, Isaiah 1:3 speaks of Israel not knowing its master. Do you think that might be related to Israel not recognizing Jesus even when he stood right in front of them commanding the elements of creation and the demons of the spiritual realm? Might John 1:11 be related? A more specific example might be James quoting Isaiah 1:17 when he speaks of the kind of religion God honors (Jms. 1:27). Another possibility might be the aforementioned admonition to reason together with God found in Isaiah 1 because Jesus came and he reasoned with the Jews of the first century. After Christ, God sent several others to do more of the same. Something more specifically related to the op, though, is the land being desolate. Jesus specifically references this in Matthew 23 when he reminds them - he is reminding them, he's not just informing them, he is reminding them because Israel had been desolate for a very long time by the time of his incarnation. It had been desolate at least as far back as Isaiah 1.

There are other places where the New Testament speaks of or references Isaiah 1, directly and indirectly. So I ask my question lest we be lacking in our understanding of Isaiah 1 by having only a Jewish view and not one informed by the newer revelation.



What does the New Testament say about the Isaiah 1 text you quoted?
 

Oseas

Member
I appreciate that. I think you're on the correct track, but in the Matthew 15:7-9 verses Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 29, not Isaiah 1.

Let's do a little review. This op asks about the "war in heaven" mentioned in Revelation 12. In my op-reply I added commentary about the true nature of "war" with God because a God as powerful as the God of the Bible doesn't really have any resistance. That language is intended for our understanding of God's abilities and our lack thereof. You responded with a portion of Isaiah 1 and I have asked what the New Testament says about Isaiah 1, not Isaiah 29. And I asked so the whole of scripture could be brought to bear on the text, and we (you, me, and whatever lurkers there might be) can understand Isaiah 1 through the newer revelation as Christians and may have some corporate unity and agreement with whole scripture.

Let me, therefore, ask my question once again: What does the New Testament say about the Isaiah 1 text you quoted?

For example, Isaiah 1:3 speaks of Israel not knowing its master. Do you think that might be related to Israel not recognizing Jesus even when he stood right in front of them commanding the elements of creation and the demons of the spiritual realm? Might John 1:11 be related? A more specific example might be James quoting Isaiah 1:17 when he speaks of the kind of religion God honors (Jms. 1:27). Another possibility might be the aforementioned admonition to reason together with God found in Isaiah 1 because Jesus came and he reasoned with the Jews of the first century. After Christ, God sent several others to do more of the same. Something more specifically related to the op, though, is the land being desolate. Jesus specifically references this in Matthew 23 when he reminds them - he is reminding them, he's not just informing them, he is reminding them because Israel had been desolate for a very long time by the time of his incarnation. It had been desolate at least as far back as Isaiah 1.

There are other places where the New Testament speaks of or references Isaiah 1, directly and indirectly. So I ask my question lest we be lacking in our understanding of Isaiah 1 by having only a Jewish view and not one informed by the newer revelation.

What does the New Testament say about the Isaiah 1 text you quoted?

6 These -the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth - have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters(waters mean peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues- to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with ALL plagues, as often as they will - these kind of punishments are already running, ut it is the beginning of soros, do you understand? THE WORD IS GOD, do you understand?)

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the Beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, - JERUSALEM - which spiritually is called SODOM and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified
.

ISAIAH 1:v. 10 to 21

10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of SODOM; give ear unto the law of our GOD, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek Judgment, relieve the oppressed, Judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the Sword: for the MOUTH of the Lord hath spoken it.

21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.


Revelation 14:v.18-19

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over FIRE; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully RIPE.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth
, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of GOD. - This prophecy will FULFILL LITERALLY from now on, day by day. -

THE WORD IS GOD
 

Josheb

Well-known member
6 These -the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth - have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters(waters mean peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues- to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with ALL plagues, as often as they will - these kind of punishments are already running, ut it is the beginning of soros, do you understand? THE WORD IS GOD, do you understand?)

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the Beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, - JERUSALEM - which spiritually is called SODOM and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified
.

ISAIAH 1:v. 10 to 21

10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of SODOM; give ear unto the law of our GOD, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek Judgment, relieve the oppressed, Judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the Sword: for the MOUTH of the Lord hath spoken it.

21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.


Revelation 14:v.18-19

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over FIRE; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully RIPE.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth
, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of GOD. - This prophecy will FULFILL LITERALLY from now on, day by day. -

THE WORD IS GOD
Perhaps I should clarify my question a bit further. There is a lot more to be said about Isaiah 1 than Revelation 14 and focusing only on the latter to understand the former neglects 26 other books of the New Testament! Attempting to understand half of one chapter from the longest book of prophecy in the Old Testament with a few verses from one chapter in a New Testament Prophecy is not wholly informative.

But it is the common practice of a certain section of Christendom that does that sort of think often and then presents it as truth of a whole.

I thought the examples I provided illustrated what it was I am asking. So perhaps I should adjust my question specifically to you to ask what else does the New Testament as a whole say about the Isaiah 1 text you quoted? Not just part of one chapter in Revelation, but what are the specific places in the gospels and the epistolary that directly reference Isaiah, that specifically add new revelation to that specific portion of older revelation?

Revelation is not the only book that references Isaiah 1.





Let me also make a few other observations. You've highlighted Revelation 14:18-19 and done so even though the text being discussed is Revelation 12, not 14. So let me encourage you to consider how the readers read your post. Do that consideration before clicking "Post reply," because to the reader this looks like you're trying to change the subject and talk about what you want to talk about regardless of what's being discussed. All other interests be damned. I trust that was not your intended motive (even though that sort of thing happens in every single thread in this board). My next observation is related to this question about the New Testament's own commentary on the Old Testament prophecies because you brought up Isaiah 1 and I asked what does the NT have to say about Isaiah 1..... relevant to the op and my op-reply? When I take the content of the Revelation 14:18-19 text and lay it over the Isaiah 1 text I don't find they speak about each other. For example, there's only one mention of "vine" in the entire chapter of Isaiah 1 and it has nothing to do with Revelation 14's mention (or vice versa). Similarly, there's no mention of "grapes," or "clusters" or "angels," "sickles," "wine," "winepress," or anything else in the Revelation quote. Once again it looks like a random portion of scripture was arbitrarily selected and injected into the discussion without any comparative examination of scripture whatsoever. And again, I trust that was unintended but if it was intended then let me be very plain and direct: that is not the way to examine scripture and it most definitely not a method for which I have any tolerance, nor one with which I will collaborate.

Isaiah 1 says some very specific things. God is speaking to various peoples who were living in Isaiah's day. God spoke to Isaiah through visions and those visions had to do with Judah and Jerusalem. This is all plainly stated in the opening verses of the book of Isaiah. These are not matters of interpretation. God is speaking about a "sinful nation," whose land is desolate. God did not speak through Isaiah and say the land would be desolate. He did not say it would be desolate some time future. God is speaking in the present tense in Isaiah 1 when He states, "You land is desolate, your cities are burned with fire," and strangers devour your fields right in front of you. God had had enough of the blood of bulls, lambs, and goats. Can you think of New Testament scriptures outside of Revelation directly referencing these and other portions of Isaiah 1?



Besides what can be found in Revelation 12 (and 14) what else does the New Testament say about the Isaiah 1 text you quoted?
 

Oseas

Member
Perhaps I should clarify my question a bit further. There is a lot more to be said about Isaiah 1 than Revelation 14 and focusing only on the latter to understand the former neglects 26 other books of the New Testament! Attempting to understand half of one chapter from the longest book of prophecy in the Old Testament with a few verses from one chapter in a New Testament Prophecy is not wholly informative.

But it is the common practice of a certain section of Christendom that does that sort of think often and then presents it as truth of a whole.

I thought the examples I provided illustrated what it was I am asking. So perhaps I should adjust my question specifically to you to ask what else does the New Testament as a whole say about the Isaiah 1 text you quoted? Not just part of one chapter in Revelation, but what are the specific places in the gospels and the epistolary that directly reference Isaiah, that specifically add new revelation to that specific portion of older revelation?

Revelation is not the only book that references Isaiah 1.

Let me also make a few other observations. You've highlighted Revelation 14:18-19 and done so even though the text being discussed is Revelation 12, not 14. So let me encourage you to consider how the readers read your post. Do that consideration before clicking "Post reply," because to the reader this looks like you're trying to change the subject and talk about what you want to talk about regardless of what's being discussed. All other interests be damned. I trust that was not your intended motive (even though that sort of thing happens in every single thread in this board). My next observation is related to this question about the New Testament's own commentary on the Old Testament prophecies because you brought up Isaiah 1 and I asked what does the NT have to say about Isaiah 1..... relevant to the op and my op-reply? When I take the content of the Revelation 14:18-19 text and lay it over the Isaiah 1 text I don't find they speak about each other. For example, there's only one mention of "vine" in the entire chapter of Isaiah 1 and it has nothing to do with Revelation 14's mention (or vice versa). Similarly, there's no mention of "grapes," or "clusters" or "angels," "sickles," "wine," "winepress," or anything else in the Revelation quote. Once again it looks like a random portion of scripture was arbitrarily selected and injected into the discussion without any comparative examination of scripture whatsoever. And again, I trust that was unintended but if it was intended then let me be very plain and direct: that is not the way to examine scripture and it most definitely not a method for which I have any tolerance, nor one with which I will collaborate.

Isaiah 1 says some very specific things. God is speaking to various peoples who were living in Isaiah's day. God spoke to Isaiah through visions and those visions had to do with Judah and Jerusalem. This is all plainly stated in the opening verses of the book of Isaiah. These are not matters of interpretation. God is speaking about a "sinful nation," whose land is desolate. God did not speak through Isaiah and say the land would be desolate. He did not say it would be desolate some time future. God is speaking in the present tense in Isaiah 1 when He states, "You land is desolate, your cities are burned with fire," and strangers devour your fields right in front of you. God had had enough of the blood of bulls, lambs, and goats. Can you think of New Testament scriptures outside of Revelation directly referencing these and other portions of Isaiah 1?

Besides what can be found in Revelation 12 (and 14) what else does the New Testament say about the Isaiah 1 text you quoted?

Dialogue between Jews and JESUS: John 8KJV
JEWS said
: - We be Abraham's seed,...John 8:v.33KJV
- JESUS said: - I know that ye are Abraham's seed...John 8:v.37KJV (Positive, they really are seed of Abraham)

JEWS said:
- Abraham is our father.... John 8:v.39KJV
- JESUS said:- If ye were Abraham's children...John 8:v.39KJV (If???? hum!!! Were not they Abraham's children? Are the Jews Abraham's seed, but not Abraham's children?)

JEWS said:
- We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. John 8:v.41KJV
- JESUS said: - If GOD were your Father...John 8:v.42KJV (If???? hum!!!)
- JESUS said to the Jews: Why do ye not understand my speech? John 8:v.43
- JESUS openly and emphaticaly said to the Jews: Ye are of your father the Devil..., John 8:v.44. Do you believe in JESUS?
In Revelation 12:v.9KJV

9 - JESUS said: And the great Dragon (the red Dragon) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him.
By the way, "red Dragon" is the new name of the Devil in this time of Apocalypse.

Genesis 3:v.4-7KJV

4 And the serpent -the Devil- said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
And they sewed fig leaves together(yes, fig leaves of the fig tree-father of the JEWS), and made themselves aprons. (Fig leaves? Yeah, fig leaves, course, even in he Garden of GOD, in Eden)

Even JESUS said to the Jews: Ye are of your father the Devil...,
Why did JESUS and John the Baptist call the Jews of serpents?

It is because the Devil is their father as JESUS, not me, said unto them, they are sons of the old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, now red Dragon. JESUS said: Mat.23:v.33-35:
33 -Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
What is the MYSTERY, why JESUS had linked the JEWS to the murder of Abel? That upon the Jews may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth beginning by Abel?
GOD caused the NATION of Israel, the clay, the dry land, to spring up out of the earth in the middle of the third Day. The NATION of Israel was created around 2500 years after Adam or 1500 years B.C., so Israel appeared in the half of the third Day of GODs' works. IN FACT, ISRAEL GREW UP AND DEVELOPED IN EGYPT.

Isaiah 1: 4-7KJV

Woe to a sinful nation, a people heavy with iniquity, evildoing seed, corrupt children. They forsook the Lord; they provoked the Holy One of Israel; they drew backwards. דה֣וֹי | גּ֣וֹי חֹטֵ֗א עַם כֶּ֣בֶד עָו‍ֹ֔ן זֶ֣רַע מְרֵעִ֔ים בָּנִ֖ים מַשְׁחִיתִ֑ים עָזְב֣וּ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֗ה נִֽאֲצ֛וּ אֶת־קְד֥וֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל נָזֹ֥רוּ אָחֽוֹר:
5Why are you beaten when you still continue to rebel? Every head is [afflicted] with illness and every heart with malaise. העַ֣ל מֶ֥ה תֻכּ֛וּ ע֖וֹד תּוֹסִ֣יפוּ סָרָ֑ה כָּל־רֹ֣אשׁ לָֽחֳלִ֔י וְכָל־לֵבָ֖ב דַּוָּֽי:
6From the sole of the foot until the head there is no soundness-wounds and contusions and lacerated sores; they have not sprinkled, neither have they been bandaged, nor was it softened with oil. ומִכַּף־רֶ֚גֶל וְעַד־רֹאשׁ֙ אֵין־בּ֣וֹ מְתֹ֔ם פֶּ֥צַע וְחַבּוּרָ֖ה וּמַכָּ֣ה טְרִיָּ֑ה לֹא־זֹ֙רוּ֙ וְלֹ֣א חֻבָּ֔שׁוּ וְלֹ֥א רֻכְּכָ֖ה בַּשָּֽׁמֶן:
7Your land is desolate; your cities burnt with fire. Your land-in your presence, strangers devour it; and it is desolate as that turned over to strangers.

Romans 2:v.5-11
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous Judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the JEW FIRST, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the JEW FIRST, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.

The Word is GOD. What is written above will fulfil LITERALLY henceforward, day by day, until the mysterious Day called Day 1335-Daniel 12:v.12.

Get ready
 

Josheb

Well-known member
Dialogue between Jews and JESUS: John 8KJV
JEWS said
: - We be Abraham's seed,...John 8:v.33KJV
- JESUS said: - I know that ye are Abraham's seed...John 8:v.37KJV (Positive, they really are seed of Abraham)

JEWS said:
- Abraham is our father.... John 8:v.39KJV
- JESUS said:- If ye were Abraham's children...John 8:v.39KJV (If???? hum!!! Were not they Abraham's children? Are the Jews Abraham's seed, but not Abraham's children?)

JEWS said:
- We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. John 8:v.41KJV
- JESUS said: - If GOD were your Father...John 8:v.42KJV (If???? hum!!!)
- JESUS said to the Jews: Why do ye not understand my speech? John 8:v.43
- JESUS openly and emphaticaly said to the Jews: Ye are of your father the Devil..., John 8:v.44. Do you believe in JESUS?
In Revelation 12:v.9KJV

9 - JESUS said: And the great Dragon (the red Dragon) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him.
By the way, "red Dragon" is the new name of the Devil in this time of Apocalypse.



Isaiah 1: 4-7KJV

Woe to a sinful nation, a people heavy with iniquity, evildoing seed, corrupt children. They forsook the Lord; they provoked the Holy One of Israel; they drew backwards. דה֣וֹי | גּ֣וֹי חֹטֵ֗א עַם כֶּ֣בֶד עָו‍ֹ֔ן זֶ֣רַע מְרֵעִ֔ים בָּנִ֖ים מַשְׁחִיתִ֑ים עָזְב֣וּ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֗ה נִֽאֲצ֛וּ אֶת־קְד֥וֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל נָזֹ֥רוּ אָחֽוֹר:
5Why are you beaten when you still continue to rebel? Every head is [afflicted] with illness and every heart with malaise. העַ֣ל מֶ֥ה תֻכּ֛וּ ע֖וֹד תּוֹסִ֣יפוּ סָרָ֑ה כָּל־רֹ֣אשׁ לָֽחֳלִ֔י וְכָל־לֵבָ֖ב דַּוָּֽי:
6From the sole of the foot until the head there is no soundness-wounds and contusions and lacerated sores; they have not sprinkled, neither have they been bandaged, nor was it softened with oil. ומִכַּף־רֶ֚גֶל וְעַד־רֹאשׁ֙ אֵין־בּ֣וֹ מְתֹ֔ם פֶּ֥צַע וְחַבּוּרָ֖ה וּמַכָּ֣ה טְרִיָּ֑ה לֹא־זֹ֙רוּ֙ וְלֹ֣א חֻבָּ֔שׁוּ וְלֹ֥א רֻכְּכָ֖ה בַּשָּֽׁמֶן:
7Your land is desolate; your cities burnt with fire. Your land-in your presence, strangers devour it; and it is desolate as that turned over to strangers.

Romans 2:v.5-11.............
And which of those New Testament passages comes directly from, or directly references, Isaiah 1?

Let's take the first set of verses just cited. John 8:33-44 is certainly a realization of certain prophetic references, but does it have anything directly to do with Isaiah 1? There's no mention of Abraham or the seed he was promised in Isaiah 1. In other words, this is now the third time in a row in an attempt to cite a New Testament passage that provides New Testament commentary on Isaiah 1 has been made and the third time it's failed. Is what I am asking new to you? What I am asking is very important. EVERY Christian should have some grasp of the New Testament's use of the Old Testament. What verse in the John 8 passage comes directly from something stated in Isaiah1?

I don't want to digress away from the Isaiah 1 text, nor do I want to change the topic but an obvious example of what I am talking about with this John 8 passage has been provided. You have said "they really are the seed of Abraham," and rhetorically asked me "Were not they Abraham's children?" and the answer to both is an emphatic NO!!!

And that is the point of the gospel text!

The seed of Abraham is Jesus. Christ and His body is the promised seed. The New Testament tells us this explicitly. Read Galatians chapter 3 and this is explicitly stated, and abundantly clear. If what Paul is writing is true and correct then Israel and those standing in front of Jesus in John 8 are NOT the seed of Abraham. They are descendants of Abraham, and as such they are a seed of sorts, but they are not the seed that was promised to Abraham. According to Paul the seed promised Abraham was not only Christ but that seed was singular, not plural. That means there are not and cannot be two or more seeds. It means Israel is not the promised seed. Jesus is the promised seed.

Galatians 3:15-19
Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

John 1:11
He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

In the Galatians 3 passage Paul directly quotes from Genesis 12, where God first made His promise of a seed to Abraham. So if you and I were reading the Bible from its beginning we would come to Genesis 12 and understand God promise Abraham a "seed" and if we were paying close attention we would not the "seed" was singular, not plural. It's completely understandable we migh connect it to the promise Abraham would be the father of many nations. Then as we read on through Genesis, through Exodus and the books of the Law we might also easily understand the Hebrews or the nation of Israel as the promised seed. If all we had was the Hebrew scriptures that is what we would understand.

But then the newer revelation of the New Testament comes along and tells us that is incorrect!!! The New Testament tells us the Jewish understanding of the promises made to Abraham was wrong! The New Testament implicitly tells the Christian NOT to be a Jew, think like a Jew, or accept everything Jewish theology taught as consistent with the newer revelation.

Jesus is the promised seed, not the Jews standing in front of Jesus in John 8.

That is what the New Testament says about the Old Testament Abrahamic seed promise.



Now try this same approach to the Isaiah 1 passage. What does the New Testament say about the Isaiah 1 text you cited? Can you find one place in the New Testament (outside the book of Revelation) where anything in Isaiah 1 is quoted? Where in the New Testament is Isaiah 1 quoted or directly referenced?


  • What does the New Testament say about the Isaiah 1 text you cited?
  • What verse in the John 8 passage comes directly from something stated in Isaiah1?
  • Can you find one place in the New Testament (outside the book of Revelation) where anything in Isaiah 1 is quoted?
  • Where in the New Testament is Isaiah 1 quoted or directly referenced?


It is NOT John 8:33-44.


John 8:39-40
If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.



Let me make two recommendations: First try starting with Isaiah 1:4, the statement about "woe to a sinful nation." Second, let go of everything that may have been taught and for the sake of this conversation rely first and foremost on the plainly stated word of God as stated in His word. Can you not think of any passage in the New Testament outside of Revelation where Jesus or one or the apostles speaks "woe" to the sinful nation? Can you think of a place where Jesus or the apostles directly reference Isaiah's sinful nation? Start there. They have abandoned the LORD,
despised the Holy One of Israel and turned away from Him. What does the NEW TESTAMENT state about this Isaiah 1:4 reference? Be specific. Find the NT verses specific to this Isaiah 1 text.


Because so far, these posts have been all over the Bible and have not been specific to the Isaiah 1 text at all.
 

Alive

Active member
As far as I know scripture does not provide an explicit answer to why it was Michael and not JC or Gabriel, or some other angel (messenger), so any answer we might offer will be speculative..... but the answer likely lies in the the scriptural fact Michael is an archangel (Jude 1:9), and "aarchaggelos" or "chief angel," "ruler of angels," or "superior angel".

Since angels are created beings, AND everything God made in the "creation week" was deemed very good, we necessarily understand this fight happened after the first six days. Rebellion and war are not good. God would not have deemed or declared them such upon His survey.

Depends upon what you mean by "access". Job tells us the "sons of God" are summoned before God and satan is among them. Jude, however, tells us those angels who did not keep their proper abode have been "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day," and will suffer "vengeance of eternal fire." Both passages provide context to Jesus' report satan roams the earth. Apparently, even though he roams the earth he does not roam freely. He roams held in bondage, his destiny is decided, and he comes when he is summoned until then.

That deserves a separate thread because the various eschatological views are going to have different answers. Some modern futurists (those influenced by the Dispensational pov) are not going to agree that fight is in the past. They are going to see it as a yet future event. I will suggest the Rev. 12 account is about Luke 10:18. Otherwise we have to explain how satan can be cast down, then return, and then have to be cast down twice. Is God not able to cast someone out for good? Jesus saw him cast out of heaven. What casting down might that have been? If the tradition saying satan is the former angel Lucifer is true, then Isaiah 14 is the event when satan was cast down or out of heaven and the event to which Jesus is referencing in Luke 10 and Revelation 12.



Everyone should understand that the language of "war," "rebellion," or any other reference to conflict has a context to which we should ALL concede: that of The ALMIGHTY Sovereign Creator God. These words have meaning, or at least they are supposed to have meaning and we're supposed to think, speak, write, and act in a manner consistent with the meaning of those words. No one defies God one fraction of a nanosecond longer than He permits!!! He is the creator; all others are created creatures. He is Infinite; all others are finite. He is ALL mighty, and the creature has no might but that which was given it. The finite creature's rebellion is analogous to a child shooting spit-wads at the armor of an M-1 tank. The tank doesn't even know it's being assaulted 🥱. God is impervious to the machinations of the creature. He spoke the creature into existence, and He can speak the creature out of existence, and He can speak the creature out of existence in such a manner no record of the creature's ever having existed remains.

Instantaneously.

This is presuppositional. So all this talk of conflict in the Bible occurs solely within the context of the Creator creating with intent and all He created serving His purpose(s) and His alone. Whatever the purpose the creature may believe s/he has, it never exists apart from the purpose of the Creator. God is sovereign even over sin.
Oh, yes. It makes me nutz when these wars and battles are referenced as anything other. God cannot be resisted.
Well said, brother.
 

keiw

Active member
Dialogue between Jews and JESUS: John 8KJV
JEWS said
: - We be Abraham's seed,...John 8:v.33KJV
- JESUS said: - I know that ye are Abraham's seed...John 8:v.37KJV (Positive, they really are seed of Abraham)

JEWS said:
- Abraham is our father.... John 8:v.39KJV
- JESUS said:- If ye were Abraham's children...John 8:v.39KJV (If???? hum!!! Were not they Abraham's children? Are the Jews Abraham's seed, but not Abraham's children?)

JEWS said:
- We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. John 8:v.41KJV
- JESUS said: - If GOD were your Father...John 8:v.42KJV (If???? hum!!!)
- JESUS said to the Jews: Why do ye not understand my speech? John 8:v.43
- JESUS openly and emphaticaly said to the Jews: Ye are of your father the Devil..., John 8:v.44. Do you believe in JESUS?
In Revelation 12:v.9KJV

9 - JESUS said: And the great Dragon (the red Dragon) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him.
By the way, "red Dragon" is the new name of the Devil in this time of Apocalypse.

Genesis 3:v.4-7KJV

4 And the serpent -the Devil- said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
And they sewed fig leaves together(yes, fig leaves of the fig tree-father of the JEWS), and made themselves aprons. (Fig leaves? Yeah, fig leaves, course, even in he Garden of GOD, in Eden)

Even JESUS said to the Jews: Ye are of your father the Devil...,
Why did JESUS and John the Baptist call the Jews of serpents?

It is because the Devil is their father as JESUS, not me, said unto them, they are sons of the old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, now red Dragon. JESUS said: Mat.23:v.33-35:
33 -Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
What is the MYSTERY, why JESUS had linked the JEWS to the murder of Abel? That upon the Jews may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth beginning by Abel?
GOD caused the NATION of Israel, the clay, the dry land, to spring up out of the earth in the middle of the third Day. The NATION of Israel was created around 2500 years after Adam or 1500 years B.C., so Israel appeared in the half of the third Day of GODs' works. IN FACT, ISRAEL GREW UP AND DEVELOPED IN EGYPT.

Isaiah 1: 4-7KJV

Woe to a sinful nation, a people heavy with iniquity, evildoing seed, corrupt children. They forsook the Lord; they provoked the Holy One of Israel; they drew backwards. דה֣וֹי | גּ֣וֹי חֹטֵ֗א עַם כֶּ֣בֶד עָו‍ֹ֔ן זֶ֣רַע מְרֵעִ֔ים בָּנִ֖ים מַשְׁחִיתִ֑ים עָזְב֣וּ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֗ה נִֽאֲצ֛וּ אֶת־קְד֥וֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל נָזֹ֥רוּ אָחֽוֹר:
5Why are you beaten when you still continue to rebel? Every head is [afflicted] with illness and every heart with malaise. העַ֣ל מֶ֥ה תֻכּ֛וּ ע֖וֹד תּוֹסִ֣יפוּ סָרָ֑ה כָּל־רֹ֣אשׁ לָֽחֳלִ֔י וְכָל־לֵבָ֖ב דַּוָּֽי:
6From the sole of the foot until the head there is no soundness-wounds and contusions and lacerated sores; they have not sprinkled, neither have they been bandaged, nor was it softened with oil. ומִכַּף־רֶ֚גֶל וְעַד־רֹאשׁ֙ אֵין־בּ֣וֹ מְתֹ֔ם פֶּ֥צַע וְחַבּוּרָ֖ה וּמַכָּ֣ה טְרִיָּ֑ה לֹא־זֹ֙רוּ֙ וְלֹ֣א חֻבָּ֔שׁוּ וְלֹ֥א רֻכְּכָ֖ה בַּשָּֽׁמֶן:
7Your land is desolate; your cities burnt with fire. Your land-in your presence, strangers devour it; and it is desolate as that turned over to strangers.

Romans 2:v.5-11
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous Judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the JEW FIRST, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the JEW FIRST, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.

The Word is GOD. What is written above will fulfil LITERALLY henceforward, day by day, until the mysterious Day called Day 1335-Daniel 12:v.12.


Get ready
It meant they came through the lineage of Abraham, but they were not righteous like Abraham. They were apostocised when Jesus came. He told them off in Matt 23. When God was standing for Israel and they for him properly. No one could defeat them, but Rome was ruling over them because God was not really with them at that point. One time in the OT God sent 300 Israelite warriors to stand against 100,000--IsraeL Won the battle.
 

Oseas

Member
Isaiah 1:4, the statement about "woe to a sinful nation."
The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. Why should ye be stricken any more? Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Isaiah 1
- JESUS said: Matthew 23:v. 1-3 and 28-
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

28 ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye (sons of) serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, ...

2 Thessalonians 2:v.2-3 and 9-12 - GOD WILL SEND TO ISRAEL A STRONG DELUSION AS FOLLOWS:

3
Let no man deceive you by any means(Pastors, Bihops, Evangelists, among others): for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN of sin -a former Cherub- be revealed, the son of perdition; -> The MAN Beast of the earth, and he has two horns (he will represent the two kingdoms of Israel) like a lamb (A FALSE LAMB, A FALSE MESSIAH, an esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist messiah, future guide and ruler of Israel and the esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist Judaism), and he spake as a Dragon. 12 And he(will) exercise(th) all the power of the first (MAN) Beast(of sea) before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first (MAN) Beast-the Pope) , whose deadly wound was healed.)

4 Who (will) oppose(th) and exalte(th) himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God (will) sitt(eth) in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Be careful or then get ready
 

Oseas

Member
It meant they came through the lineage of Abraham, but they were not righteous like Abraham. They were apostocised when Jesus came. He told them off in Matt 23. When God was standing for Israel and they for him properly. No one could defeat them, but Rome was ruling over them because God was not really with them at that point.
If you see well you will see that GOD was with them, among them, speaking with them, but they preferred Barabbas (this prevails until today) instead their GOD, their messiah, which they killed. John the Apostle said: We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true GOD, and eternal life. 1John 5:v.19-20
One time in the OT God sent 300 Israelite warriors to stand against 100,000--IsraeL Won the battle.
Yes, Gideon, won the battle because he destroied the altar of Baal of his father. Judges 6:v.25-31
 

Josheb

Well-known member
The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. Why should ye be stricken any more? Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Isaiah 1
- JESUS said: Matthew 23:v. 1-3 and 28-


2 Thessalonians 2:v.2-3 and 9-12 - GOD WILL SEND TO ISRAEL A STRONG DELUSION AS FOLLOWS:


Be careful or then get ready
Because this fourth attempt to find Isaiah 1 content explicitly mentioned or referenced in the New Testament has failed, I am going to move on. You seem to be interested in your own agenda and I am not interested in anything not specifically related to the inquiry of this op. I don't know what you think is accomplished by telling a bunch of Christians "Be careful and be ready," but it is preaching to the choir. Regardless of a believer's eschatology, those in whom the Spirit of God dwells are careful and ready.
The ox knoweth his owner......
Yes, and the ox knoweth where Isaiah 1 is commented on in the New Testament. S/he also knows how it is relevant to the "war" in Revelation 12.

Thank you for your time and patience.
 

keiw

Active member
If you see well you will see that GOD was with them, among them, speaking with them, but they preferred Barabbas (this prevails until today) instead their GOD, their messiah, which they killed. John the Apostle said: We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true GOD, and eternal life. 1John 5:v.19-20

Yes, Gideon, won the battle because he destroied the altar of Baal of his father. Judges 6:v.25-31

No God was not among them. The Israelites knew 100% the messiah has a God like we do,( psalm 45:7) thus could not be God because there is only 1 God=the Father. Jesus called the Father-THE ONLY TRUE GOD( John 17:3)-- WHY wont you believe him? Its a guarantee, every real follower believes Jesus.
 

Oseas

Member
No God was not among them.
So, your belief is only the Devil was among them, not GOD.
The Israelites knew 100% the messiah has a God like we do,( psalm 45:7) thus could not be God because there is only 1 God=the Father.
In fact what you wrote is not true, it is fake, for if 100% of the Jewish people knew the Messiah, who is GOD made flesh, they would never had murdered Him. They preferred Barabbas, Barabbas was a demon.
Jesus called the Father-THE ONLY TRUE GOD( John 17:3)--
Surely, JESUS could never say different, for He is the own GOD incarnated. JESUS and GOD the Father are One.
WHY wont you believe him?
If you believe in JESUS you would be His disciple? Why do you write only lies likeness the Jewish people, as JESUS said? John 8:v.44-45. Check it.
Its a guarantee, every real follower believes Jesus.
Unfortunately you believe not and know not JESUS, you only heard to speak of Him, and know that He exists, OK, but you didn't know Him. No man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he TO WHOMSOEVER the Son will reveal him.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! Revelation 12:v.12
 
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