War in heaven.

puddleglum

Well-known member
Interesting thoughts, but Michael had the authority to do it. Why? What was going on that would involve Michael, and not Gabriel or one of the other unnamed archangels.

Where is Gabriel ever called an archangel? The only archangel I find mentioned in the Bible is Michael. The word "archangels" doesn't appear either.

The prefix "arch" seems to indicate someone in authority. Michael seems to be an angel who has authority over the other angels. I have found no evidence of their being a separate class of beings called archangels.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Where is Gabriel ever called an archangel? The only archangel I find mentioned in the Bible is Michael. The word "archangels" doesn't appear either.

The prefix "arch" seems to indicate someone in authority. Michael seems to be an angel who has authority over the other angels. I have found no evidence of their being a separate class of beings called archangels.
I don't think Gabriel's rank has been identified , I was referring to the archangels like Michael, the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece. With so many countries, there must be more. Michael has authority over Israel.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Too many generalizations. Given the sheer number of believers, and the number of different churches, to pretend to be able to classify "all" churches in every age into one of these types is beyond human ability.

Obviously one can attempt to categorize the hierarchies of the principal denominations as this or that, but even within one single denomination, individual churches are often like chalk and cheese when it comes to spirituality.

I fear this kind of thing quickly turns into a purported demonstration of one's own spiritual superiority.
Actually it really shows what Jesus thinks of our denominations and lack of unity. It also shows that most church denominations' beliefs are dead. "You have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." When you can discern what Jesus means, and who He was talking about, then you will run for the hills away from them and be part of who Jesus believes to be worthy. Unless our itching ears won't let us believe what is true and what will set us free, and believe false teachers and their easy greasy grace doctrines of demons.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Actually it really shows what Jesus thinks of our denominations and lack of unity. It also shows that most church denominations' beliefs are dead. "You have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." When you can discern what Jesus means, and who He was talking about, then you will run for the hills away from them and be part of who Jesus believes to be worthy. Unless our itching ears won't let us believe what is true and what will set us free, and believe false teachers and their easy greasy grace doctrines of demons.
There are many who exert a pretended superiority over others. This is the spirit I came across when I visited a pentecostal church. It all seemed to be about demonstrating by words or by tongues one's superiority over others. I found the whole exercise repellent and contrary to the doctrine of charitable love taught in the bible.

To label anything of God as "the doctrine of demons" could amount to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. In 1 Tim 4:1, Paul was careful to give specific examples of what he meant by the doctrine of demons. If we are to use this dangerous spiritual phraseology, we must target it accurately, and make clear what we mean, rather than use it as a kind of hand grenade to toss at particular denominations or bible commentaries we don't personally like.

So what specifically are you referring to by the phrase "false teachers and their easy greasy grace doctrines of demons?"
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
There are many who exert a pretended superiority over others. This is the spirit I came across when I visited a pentecostal church. It all seemed to be about demonstrating by words or by tongues one's superiority over others. I found the whole exercise repellent and contrary to the doctrine of charitable love taught in the bible.

To label anything of God as "the doctrine of demons" could amount to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. In 1 Tim 4:1, Paul was careful to give specific examples of what he meant by the doctrine of demons. If we are to use this dangerous spiritual phraseology, we must target it accurately, and make clear what we mean, rather than use it as a kind of hand grenade to toss at particular denominations or bible commentaries we don't personally like.

So what specifically are you referring to by the phrase "false teachers and their easy greasy grace doctrines of demons?"
Anything that denies that Jesus takes away our sin nature now so that we partake of His divine nature. Many preach "we will always sin." The opposite of what Jesus claims He will do is a doctrine of demons. Like claiming 1 John 1:8 is a born again Christian. Now THAT is blasphemy!
 

cjab

Well-known member
Anything that denies that Jesus takes away our sin nature now so that we partake of His divine nature. Many preach "we will always sin." The opposite of what Jesus claims He will do is a doctrine of demons. Like claiming 1 John 1:8 is a born again Christian. Now THAT is blasphemy!
You're saying people who have sin aren't born again Christians, or people who say they have no sin aren't born again Christians?
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
You're saying people who have sin aren't born again Christians, or people who say they have no sin aren't born again Christians?

It is the next verse that someone with sin, but who says they are without sin, like a Gnostic who doesn't believe in sins of the flesh, must do in order to become cleansed of all unrighteousness.

What do you think? That once you are cleansed of all unrighteousness, and have received the powerful sinless Spirit of God that you are still a sinner and then cannot be in heaven forever? John 8:32-36.

You better start rightly dividing the Word, and believe 1 John 3, or you will be forever believing the devil's lies. 1 John 1:5-10 are constrasts between light vs. darkness. 6, 8 and 10 are not Christians, but Gnostics described in 1 John 4:1-3. You are in the majority who have not rightly divided 1 John 1. Only a few there are who find it. Come over to the light side - 1 John 1:7, but beware of the condition - forgiveness of trespasses, Matthew 6:14-15.

And start being taught by the Spirit, and not those commentaries from the "majority." If you want a good commentary not full of doctrines of demons, get an Abingdon Bible Commentary, c. 1929.
 

cjab

Well-known member
It is the next verse that someone with sin, but who says they are without sin, like a Gnostic who doesn't believe in sins of the flesh, must do in order to become cleansed of all unrighteousness.

What do you think? That once you are cleansed of all unrighteousness, and have received the powerful sinless Spirit of God that you are still a sinner and then cannot be in heaven forever? John 8:32-36.
I believe that the point has been made previously, and the point is made in all the bible commentaries, that there is distinction to be drawn between the sins of the reprobate (mortal sins) and the hidden, venal sins that are implicit in the human nature by virtue of our flesh.

John himself drawn this distinction in

1Jo 5:16

"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that."

For instance, I regard it as sinful that you should widely asperse bible commentaries written by erudite people as the "doctrines of demons." I am not saying that they are perfect, or free of error, or free of the taint of heresy in some cases. Indeed I have just got rid of one which I don't agree with myself. But to just asperse so many Christian commentaries as the "doctrines of demons" seems to be wide of the mark. I doubt you've even read most of them. You don't see it as sinful, because you believe you have no sin. I don't agree with you: such is not humble, but haughty.

This is what James says:

Jas 3:6
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

Jas 3:7
All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and sea creatures are being tamed and have been tamed by mankind,

Jas 3:8
but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

Jas 3:9
With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness.

Jas 3:10
Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be.

Jas 3:11
Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring

Jas 3:12
My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.


You better start rightly dividing the Word, and believe 1 John 3, or you will be forever believing the devil's lies. 1 John 1:5-10 are constrasts between light vs. darkness. 6, 8 and 10 are not Christians, but Gnostics described in 1 John 4:1-3. You are in the majority who have not rightly divided 1 John 1. Only a few there are who find it. Come over to the light side - 1 John 1:7, but beware of the condition - forgiveness of trespasses, Matthew 6:14-15.

And start being taught by the Spirit, and not those commentaries from the "majority." If you want a good commentary not full of doctrines of demons, get an Abingdon Bible Commentary, c. 1929.
Actually I don't read many commentaries, due to the internet. But they're always nice to refer to when the going gets tough. As for 1 John 1:5-10, it is obvious that the letter was written to Christians, with a warning against gnosticism. As such, every use of "us" and "we" refers to Christians. I do not accept that anyone who considers themselves perfect is walking in the light, or has a right view of themselves.

As James says,

Jas 3:2
We all stumble in many ways.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
I believe that the point has been made previously, and the point is made in all the bible commentaries, that there is distinction to be drawn between the sins of the reprobate (mortal sins) and the hidden, venal sins that are implicit in the human nature by virtue of our flesh.

The Abingdon commentary confirms that 1 John was written to Christians specifically about the Gnostic's antichrist lies. It also agrees with me that 1 John 1:8 is about their belief that there is no such thing as sins of the flesh, so they have no sin. It is not talking here about mortal vs. venial sins as you said. 1 John 1:7 is what you are talking about and I agree. Except, notice that those who are walking in the light "have fellowship with one another." Why? Because they are obedient to God's command to forgive those brethren who trespass (venial) against them, keeping unity in the church, and THEN the blood of Jesus keeps cleansing those venial sins automatically.

As a paraphrase, remember 5 is God is light, 6 but those who say they have a relationship with God but walk in darkness, lie and do not practice the truth, so therefore do not have a relationship with God at all; but 7 those who walk in the light as Jesus is in the light do practice the truth and God's commands to love each other and forgive so have fellowship with one another, and their unintentional sins (venial) are continually cleansed.

Before we come to Christ to cleanse our sins we have both mortal and venial sins. If we say we don't have mortal sins but still have the hate from a carnal nature, and say we haven't sinned, we don't know God's requirement of love. 1 John 3:15 "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

c, verse 9 is another of the most misinterpreted and misunderstood verses in scripture. Why? Because people do not believe that Jesus takes away our sin. They don't realize that taking away our sin is taking away the carnal nature that produces sin. Instead, the church teaches that we will always sin due to our carnal nature due to the fact that we still live in these bodies. That is the opposite of what really happens when Jesus takes away our sin. He baptizes us with His Spirit and creates in us a divine nature with divine power to not sin. And what the Spirit starts in us by planting the fruit of the Spirit He nurtures as we commit to walking in the Spirit and maturing in the fruit of the Spirit and love. That is not overcoming sin, but steps to perfection 2 Peter 1:5-7, but read in context from 2-11. Those who follow those steps will never stumble. That is perfection and the answer to the command of Jesus to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. The church teaches that sanctification takes a lifetime to overcome sin as we strive and continually ask for forgiveness each time we sin 1 John 1:9 (erroneous interpretation of continual sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent ad infinitum). No, sin has been taken care of. The steps to perfection is now called glorification due to the divine nature with which Jesus has made us born again. Now we have a lifetime with the mind of Christ to be like Him.

The church has also given us a definition of grace as unmerited favor, with the erroneous theory that the blood of Jesus covers our sin we keep committing because of the carnal nature. No, again in 2 Peter 1:2-4 we see that grace is divine power. We have escaped the lust of the flesh in the world.
 

cjab

Well-known member
c, verse 9 is another of the most misinterpreted and misunderstood verses in scripture. Why? Because people do not believe that Jesus takes away our sin. They don't realize that taking away our sin is taking away the carnal nature that produces sin. Instead, the church teaches that we will always sin due to our carnal nature due to the fact that we still live in these bodies.
Nowhere is the "taking away of the carnal nature" taught in scripture. That would be the equivalent of putting on of immortality in this life. But that cannot happen per 1 Cor 15:54, where immortality (victory over death) is assigned to the general resurrection. Rather what is taught is victory over the carnal nature, but the carnal nature still causes all to die.

Otherwise everyone would become like Christ, and be raised from the dead instantaneously, or merely be translated directly to heaven. Paul admits in Rom 7:25 that there are two laws in himself, the law of the flesh, subject to death, and the law of God in his mind. Moreover he concedes he is engaged in a lifelong struggle to suppress the former: 1Co 9:27 ("beat my body and make it my slave....").

It would be useful if you could reference your discourse with verses to back up your theories. Here is what is actually written:

Rom 6:17
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.

Rom 7:24
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

Rom 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

1Co 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Co 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jo 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


That is the opposite of what really happens when Jesus takes away our sin. He baptizes us with His Spirit and creates in us a divine nature with divine power to not sin.
It is for the man to put on the divine nature and command the divine power by working out faith (2Pe 1:4)

)And what the Spirit starts in us by planting the fruit of the Spirit He nurtures as we commit to walking in the Spirit and maturing in the fruit of the Spirit and love. That is not overcoming sin, but steps to perfection 2 Peter 1:5-7, but read in context from 2-11. Those who follow those steps will never stumble. That is perfection and the answer to the command of Jesus to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. The church teaches that sanctification takes a lifetime to overcome sin as we strive and continually ask for forgiveness each time we sin 1 John 1:9 (erroneous interpretation of continual sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent ad infinitum). No, sin has been taken care of. The steps to perfection is now called glorification due to the divine nature with which Jesus has made us born again. Now we have a lifetime with the mind of Christ to be like Him.
In part this is true, but in part not. You are confusing legal justification with sanctification. Although sanctification is a consequence of justification, there is another side to sanctification which is living out the faith in victory, leading to substantial perfection (James 1:23) rather than just legal perfection. Perfection on belief is a legal position with respect to God's righteous judgement. It isn't a practical observation, for as Christ conceded:

Mat 18:21
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Mat 18:22
Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

AND NOTE ESPECIALLY

Mat 18:15
“If your brother or sister] sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

Mat 18:16
But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’

Mat 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.


So not all sin is taken care of even in a believer. It remains something that has to be dealt with. Humans do have to examine themselves constantly in respect of sin:

2Co 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

Paul and Jesus would not have said these things had all possibility of sin been removed. The dangers of being led astray by false teachers are particularly prevelant for the Christian. Also Paul makes little issue of the ability of all Christians to fall away.

The church has also given us a definition of grace as unmerited favor, with the erroneous theory that the blood of Jesus covers our sin we keep committing because of the carnal nature. No, again in 2 Peter 1:2-4 we see that grace is divine power. We have escaped the lust of the flesh in the world.
Again partly true, and partly not. Grace is certainly divine power, but it must be appropriated. Nothing is automatic. The extent to which grace is appropriated is for the individual to prove to themselves and to others.

For myself, I believe you are in some danger yourself believing that, for all practical purposes, there is for you no such thing as sins of the flesh, such that you have no sin. And this IMO is wrong. The bible is very clear that glorification comes after the race has been run, and won: “Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory? (Luke 24:26). You seem to think you have already won the race. May be you have been faithful, but I don't think you qualify as perfect yet, and neither do I see myself in that light either.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Nowhere is the "taking away of the carnal nature" taught in scripture. That would be the equivalent of putting on of immortality in this life. But that cannot happen per 1 Cor 15:54, where immortality (victory over death) is assigned to the general resurrection. Rather what is taught is victory over the carnal nature, but the carnal nature still causes all to die.

Otherwise everyone would become like Christ, and be raised from the dead instantaneously, or merely be translated directly to heaven. Paul admits in Rom 7:25 that there are two laws in himself, the law of the flesh, subject to death, and the law of God in his mind. Moreover he concedes he is engaged in a lifelong struggle to suppress the former: 1Co 9:27 ("beat my body and make it my slave....").

It would be useful if you could reference your discourse with verses to back up your theories. Here is what is actually written:

Rom 6:17
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.

Rom 7:24
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

Rom 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

1Co 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Co 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jo 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.



It is for the man to put on the divine nature and command the divine power by working out faith (2Pe 1:4)


In part this is true, but in part not. You are confusing legal justification with sanctification. Although sanctification is a consequence of justification, there is another side to sanctification which is living out the faith in victory, leading to substantial perfection (James 1:23) rather than just legal perfection. Perfection on belief is a legal position with respect to God's righteous judgement. It isn't a practical observation, for as Christ conceded:

Mat 18:21
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Mat 18:22
Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

AND NOTE ESPECIALLY

Mat 18:15
“If your brother or sister] sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

Mat 18:16
But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’

Mat 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.


So not all sin is taken care of even in a believer. It remains something that has to be dealt with. Humans do have to examine themselves constantly in respect of sin:

2Co 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

Paul and Jesus would not have said these things had all possibility of sin been removed. The dangers of being led astray by false teachers are particularly prevelant for the Christian. Also Paul makes little issue of the ability of all Christians to fall away.


Again partly true, and partly not. Grace is certainly divine power, but it must be appropriated. Nothing is automatic. The extent to which grace is appropriated is for the individual to prove to themselves and to others.

For myself, I believe you are in some danger yourself believing that, for all practical purposes, there is for you no such thing as sins of the flesh, such that you have no sin. And this IMO is wrong. The bible is very clear that glorification comes after the race has been run, and won: “Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory? (Luke 24:26). You seem to think you have already won the race. May be you have been faithful, but I don't think you qualify as perfect yet, and neither do I see myself in that light either.

When Jesus takes away our sin, how does that happen?
What is our flesh?
Is there a difference between the carnal nature and the divine nature?
Can you have both the carnal nature and the divine nature at the same time?
What is born again and when?
 

cjab

Well-known member
When Jesus takes away our sin, how does that happen?
Legally. it is an atonement, the same as a pardon. But it may be revoked for apostasy Matt 18:35.

What is our flesh?
Our humanity, our body.

Is there a difference between the carnal nature and the divine nature?
The divine nature pertains to the mind/spirit/rational nature, the carnal to the body and the lusts thereof.

Can you have both the carnal nature and the divine nature at the same time?
The two must always coexist, albeit in the true believer the carnal is crucified, such that the rational is victorious.

What is born again and when?
One's spirit is born again (spirit/mind/rational nature is deadened by sin), the mind renewed, and the soul given new life upon faith; and then power comes with the Holy Spirit.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
1. Of all the angels, why was it Michael who fought Satan and threw him and his angels out of heaven?
2. Did this happen before creation week? If not, when did it happen, or when will it happen?
3. Does Satan and his angels still have access to God's throne?
4. In context what is chapter 12 and 13 about? That may help answer these questions.
Which "Authoritative version" would you like????
 

cjab

Well-known member
In spirit and soul, which is the heart and which is the mind? There is scripture for the spirit, so the other is the soul.
Not quite sure I grasp the question, and these concepts do tend to overlap somewhat, but I would say the soul is the bodily related part of a person, and the spirit the divinely related part of a person, whereas the (metaphorical) heart is the bodily related part of the soul where the will and emotions reside, and the mind the divinely related/rational part of the soul where the intentions are created, and which is enlivened by the spirit (as long as not speaking in tongues in which case the mind is unproductive).
 
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