Was it right for John MacArthur to conceal the fact that he had Covid?

shnarkle

Well-known member
He kept his church open during the pandemic which I think he had every right to do, and evidently the county agreed so they paid him $800,000.00 However, he and others in the church came down with Covid and concealed the fact from the county ordinance. Then he came out and boasted that they beat it. Evidently, they had, but I'm not so sure that justifies his deception.



John MacArthur got COVID-19 and concealed it​

The story of an Evangelical infection​


Jonathan Poletti

Jonathan Poletti
3 days ago·5 min read



Ina sermon on August 30th, John MacArthur of Grace Community Church, a key leader of the Evangelical world, said he’d caught COVID-19 last December.​

For months there was speculation, but he’d denied it—until casually mentioning it as if it was nothing. This is a fascinating scene in Evangelical history. I set out before me the story of a secret.
1*dsPRvHSygkXxQPEvIUAfzg.png

1*Op6pOS9x7JUyBrxzWFddJw.png

John MacArthur: January 23, 2021 and August 30, 2021 (screen captures)

On December 8, 2020, Grace Community Church had a staff Christmas party.​

There were no masks or social distancing, as usual. The staff hugged and shook hands. The church had a lot to celebrate. They’d stayed open throughout a pandemic.
“There is no pandemic,” MacArthur had famously said, calling it the “virus of deception” perpetrated by “the arch deceiver Satan himself.”
At age 81, he was again at the forefront of the Evangelical world, seen as boldly standing up to oppressive government powers.
He’d had security guards keep out health inspectors. This was, the church said, a “Jesus Life Matters protest.”

It was the church vs. Satan.​

And the Christmas party would be a time to celebrate the people of God prevailing over the powers of darkness once again.
The legal tides were shifting in their favor. Days earlier, on November 26th, the Supreme Court had struck down restrictions on religious services in New York. Soon, Los Angeles County would have to follow suit.
The church leaders might have surmised the county would be forced to pay all legal bills. It would sound like a thrilling David and Goliath story.
At the Christmas party, according to GCC blogger
Modern Day Zorro
, MacArthur gave a speechwith these talking points:

“1. COVID PCR tests are inaccurate and should not be trusted.
2. Don’t take the vaccine as it’s just a money ploy.
3. Grace is welcoming 400 new members.
4. The giving is the best it’s ever been.
5. There are no long-term side effects to COVID.”

Two Sundays later, he was seen to be out of breath.​

Even at age 81, MacArthur is typically vigorous—still the tall football player who’d kept the Evangelical world enthralled for decades.
The following week, he disappeared from public view. On Sunday, December 27th, he skipped preaching duties with an announcement he would be “resting.” There was talk of him having a “stomach bug.”
He admits now he knew it was COVID-19. Seven leaders who’d been at the staff Christmas party had also reportedly come down with the virus. MacArthur mentions his wife also caught it. As he puts it:
“…many people contracted COVID. We understand that it probably went through our church in maybe December, January. That’s when I began to realize how many people were ill. And that’s when Patricia and I enjoyed our own bout with COVID for about a week and a half and, and we were fine. And we’re thankful for that. So the Lord has protected us through this.”

The church kept it quiet.​

County regulations required reporting whenever there were three infections within a fourteen day window. They could’ve been shut down—just when it’d seemed they’d prevailed.
They seem to have cracked down on any leaks. The Evangelical journalist Julie Roys reported at the time that church insiders “are being pressured not to report new COVID cases”—with staff apparently believing they would lose their jobs if they did.
It was a gamble that the MacArthurs would survive. If he or his wife died, or even had to go to the hospital, it’d become clear they’d attempted to conceal the infection.

On Sunday, January 3rd, he was again absent.​

This time the excuse was that he had to prepare for a conference which was to be held several months later. This seems so absurd that everyone at the church who was paying attention surely knew.
MacArthur was gone on the two following Sundays, but there was no explanation. Though he later says his illness lasted “a week and a half” it seems to have lasted a month.
On Sunday, January 23rd, he was back in the pulpit, but coughing. He barely referenced his absence, just saying it was “rare” for him to be away since “I love to minister the Word of God.”
And the church kept up public talk of being full of “divine immunity” — even as people were dying. When they did, COVID-19 seems not to have been mentioned at their funerals.

Wasn’t all Evangelical theology at stake?​

The idea is often suggested that God’s true believers are divinely protected by their spiritual status, even by the church building.
As MacArthur later explains the church’s legal wrangling with Los Angeles County: “it’s just amazing how the Lord has protected us, isn’t it?”
Had MacArthur acknowledged his infection at the time, he might have seemed less of God’s favorite than he’d like.
The church would’ve been widely mocked.
The advantages to concealing it were clear. He’d know that if he recovered, he’d seem strong, and be able to laugh off the virus that has everyone so scared. “The natural immunity that God has designed is the greatest protection,” he explains now, since “God has a way of taking care of us as we love each other and share our germs.”
This is not quite saying the human immune system is adequate to resisting the virus. There is that special ingredient of the “love” shared at Grace Community Church — as flows through him, its pastor.

By late August, the church had been able to compel the government to pay its legal bills.​

Los Angeles County and the state of California had to combine to pay a settlement of $800,000.
It could read to the church’s supporters as their divine victory—not just over the oppressive government, but over the virus itself.
As MacArthur explains in a recent Q&A, he didn’t think the virus was very contagious.
“We’ve been meeting together like this — and for months and months and months. And the health department was here a couple of weeks ago to say, there’s no outbreak at Grace Church. How is that possible if what they say is so? We are a microcosm of the world.”
He added: “I wanted to encourage you that, spiritually speaking, this is the best place you could be.”

The episode seems to explain so much of Evangelical culture.​

The markers of success that they focused on were achieved by lies.
There seems to have been no internal church pressure for MacArthur to report his infection. He might have been faulted for it if he had.
He writes now to his supporters:
“…there is no circumstance that can cause the church to close. The church is not only a building but is the bride of Christ and exists to proclaim the truth.”
Lying is the very activity he’d assigned to ‘Satan’. But all that is just talk. What matters is the theater of ‘victory’. 🔶
 
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Our Lord's God

Well-known member
He kept his church open during the pandemic which I think he had every right to do, and evidently the county agreed so they paid him $800,000.00 However, he and others in the church came down with Covid and concealed the fact from the county ordinance. Then he came out and boasted that they beat it. Evidently, they had, but I'm not so sure that justifies his deception.



John MacArthur got COVID-19 and concealed it​

The story of an Evangelical infection​

Jonathan Poletti
Jonathan Poletti
3 days ago·5 min read



Ina sermon on August 30th, John MacArthur of Grace Community Church, a key leader of the Evangelical world, said he’d caught COVID-19 last December.​

For months there was speculation, but he’d denied it—until casually mentioning it as if it was nothing. This is a fascinating scene in Evangelical history. I set out before me the story of a secret.
1*dsPRvHSygkXxQPEvIUAfzg.png

1*Op6pOS9x7JUyBrxzWFddJw.png

John MacArthur: January 23, 2021 and August 30, 2021 (screen captures)

On December 8, 2020, Grace Community Church had a staff Christmas party.​

There were no masks or social distancing, as usual. The staff hugged and shook hands. The church had a lot to celebrate. They’d stayed open throughout a pandemic.
“There is no pandemic,” MacArthur had famously said, calling it the “virus of deception” perpetrated by “the arch deceiver Satan himself.”
At age 81, he was again at the forefront of the Evangelical world, seen as boldly standing up to oppressive government powers.
He’d had security guards keep out health inspectors. This was, the church said, a “Jesus Life Matters protest.”

It was the church vs. Satan.​

And the Christmas party would be a time to celebrate the people of God prevailing over the powers of darkness once again.
The legal tides were shifting in their favor. Days earlier, on November 26th, the Supreme Court had struck down restrictions on religious services in New York. Soon, Los Angeles County would have to follow suit.
The church leaders might have surmised the county would be forced to pay all legal bills. It would sound like a thrilling David and Goliath story.
At the Christmas party, according to GCC blogger
Modern Day Zorro
, MacArthur gave a speechwith these talking points:


Two Sundays later, he was seen to be out of breath.​

Even at age 81, MacArthur is typically vigorous—still the tall football player who’d kept the Evangelical world enthralled for decades.
The following week, he disappeared from public view. On Sunday, December 27th, he skipped preaching duties with an announcement he would be “resting.” There was talk of him having a “stomach bug.”
He admits now he knew it was COVID-19. Seven leaders who’d been at the staff Christmas party had also reportedly come down with the virus. MacArthur mentions his wife also caught it. As he puts it:

The church kept it quiet.​

County regulations required reporting whenever there were three infections within a fourteen day window. They could’ve been shut down—just when it’d seemed they’d prevailed.
They seem to have cracked down on any leaks. The Evangelical journalist Julie Roys reported at the time that church insiders “are being pressured not to report new COVID cases”—with staff apparently believing they would lose their jobs if they did.
It was a gamble that the MacArthurs would survive. If he or his wife died, or even had to go to the hospital, it’d become clear they’d attempted to conceal the infection.

On Sunday, January 3rd, he was again absent.​

This time the excuse was that he had to prepare for a conference which was to be held several months later. This seems so absurd that everyone at the church who was paying attention surely knew.
MacArthur was gone on the two following Sundays, but there was no explanation. Though he later says his illness lasted “a week and a half” it seems to have lasted a month.
On Sunday, January 23rd, he was back in the pulpit, but coughing. He barely referenced his absence, just saying it was “rare” for him to be away since “I love to minister the Word of God.”
And the church kept up public talk of being full of “divine immunity” — even as people were dying. When they did, COVID-19 seems not to have been mentioned at their funerals.

Wasn’t all Evangelical theology at stake?​

The idea is often suggested that God’s true believers are divinely protected by their spiritual status, even by the church building.
As MacArthur later explains the church’s legal wrangling with Los Angeles County: “it’s just amazing how the Lord has protected us, isn’t it?”
Had MacArthur acknowledged his infection at the time, he might have seemed less of God’s favorite than he’d like.
The church would’ve been widely mocked.
The advantages to concealing it were clear. He’d know that if he recovered, he’d seem strong, and be able to laugh off the virus that has everyone so scared. “The natural immunity that God has designed is the greatest protection,” he explains now, since “God has a way of taking care of us as we love each other and share our germs.”
This is not quite saying the human immune system is adequate to resisting the virus. There is that special ingredient of the “love” shared at Grace Community Church — as flows through him, its pastor.

By late August, the church had been able to compel the government to pay its legal bills.​

Los Angeles County and the state of California had to combine to pay a settlement of $800,000.
It could read to the church’s supporters as their divine victory—not just over the oppressive government, but over the virus itself.
As MacArthur explains in a recent Q&A, he didn’t think the virus was very contagious.

He added: “I wanted to encourage you that, spiritually speaking, this is the best place you could be.”

The episode seems to explain so much of Evangelical culture.​

The markers of success that they focused on were achieved by lies.
There seems to have been no internal church pressure for MacArthur to report his infection. He might have been faulted for it if he had.
He writes now to his supporters:

Lying is the very activity he’d assigned to ‘Satan’. But all that is just talk. What matters is the theater of ‘victory’. 🔶

You will know them by their fruits.

MacArthur's fruit was stinking up the world a long time before this ever happened.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
I don't believe it was morally wrong. I live in Arizona, and I never have even been tested. As far as I know, I havent broken any laws. I guess California has different laws. I guess it comes down to whether it is a just or unjust law. I personally wont obey unjust laws.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I don't believe it was morally wrong. I live in Arizona, and I never have even been tested. As far as I know, I havent broken any laws. I guess California has different laws. I guess it comes down to whether it is a just or unjust law. I personally wont obey unjust laws.
Perhaps this falls under Christ's instructions concerning doves and wolves. Ultimately, I think you're right because as soon as anyone buys into the mainstream narrative, they've basically become a hypochondriac. MacArthur is just ahead of the curve when it comes to seeing through this nonsense.
 

cjab

Well-known member
The hypocrisy is enthralling. I guess the reason why the church needed to remain open was to keep up its income at the expense of the health of the congregation. We know what matters: John F. MacArthur Jr, Net Worth in 2021: $14 million

The irony is that John F. MacArthur Jr, is reputed to be an adherent of "Lordship salvation."

Proponents of Lordship salvation criticize "free grace" opponents as advocating an acquiescence in sin by allowing greatly sinful behavior to exist together with the same assurance of salvation as someone who does not currently allow greatly sinful behavior, and is to some degree subduing sin."

In 1988, John F. MacArthur Jr published the first edition of "The Gospel According to Jesus". By defining salvation by what it produces and what salvation will not fail to produce, (not only glorification, but good works, repentance, faith, sanctification, yieldedness, and obedience), the book not only heavily spread the extent of the debate, but the debate expanded in scope, from questions about conversion issues, to questions about what is also necessary, and who it is who does what, throughout the Christian life."


So by his own measure, John F. MacArthur Jr may not be saved, since Rev 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and "all liars," shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
 
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Mike McK

Well-known member
The hypocrisy is enthralling. I guess the reason why the church needed to remain open was to keep up its income at the expense of the health of the congregation. We know what matters: John F. MacArthur Jr, Net Worth in 2021: $14 million
These attacks on MacArthur are silly. First, you must not know many pastors. If you did, you'd know the work of a pastor goes on whether the church doors are open or not.

Second, why should MacArthur not be paid for his work, as the Bible says?

Third, isn't it a little dishonest of you to imply that most of his money comes from his church salary, and not from the million's of books he's sold?
The irony is that John F. MacArthur Jr, is reputed to be an adherent of "Lordship salvation."
And this is relevant to whether or not he had COVID...how, exactl
So by his own measure, John F. MacArthur Jr may not be saved, since Rev 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and "all liars," shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
The Bible also says that slanderers, gossips, accusers, etc, will have their place in the Lake of Fire. So, I'd be more concerned about my own salvation if I were you.

But, back to the editorial...

Given the source, I'm skeptical. Likewise, given the fact that the only source that was provided was pretty benign and didn't support the editorial's claims, I'm skeptical.

Having followed MacArthur's ministry for about thirty years, and also following the ministry of Phil Johnson and a couple of MacArthur's other proteges, I am familiar enough with the church's beliefs to know that some of the editorial's claims are not accurate.

The author seems to hang his argument on the fact that an 81 year old man had shortness of breath. By that logic, every 81 year old man must have COVID

I have no reason to believe it wasn't a "stomach bug", as he said.
 

Nic

Well-known member
He kept his church open during the pandemic which I think he had every right to do, and evidently the county agreed so they paid him $800,000.00 However, he and others in the church came down with Covid and concealed the fact from the county ordinance. Then he came out and boasted that they beat it. Evidently, they had, but I'm not so sure that justifies his deception.



John MacArthur got COVID-19 and concealed it​

The story of an Evangelical infection​

Jonathan Poletti
Jonathan Poletti
3 days ago·5 min read



Ina sermon on August 30th, John MacArthur of Grace Community Church, a key leader of the Evangelical world, said he’d caught COVID-19 last December.​

For months there was speculation, but he’d denied it—until casually mentioning it as if it was nothing. This is a fascinating scene in Evangelical history. I set out before me the story of a secret.
1*dsPRvHSygkXxQPEvIUAfzg.png

1*Op6pOS9x7JUyBrxzWFddJw.png

John MacArthur: January 23, 2021 and August 30, 2021 (screen captures)

On December 8, 2020, Grace Community Church had a staff Christmas party.​

There were no masks or social distancing, as usual. The staff hugged and shook hands. The church had a lot to celebrate. They’d stayed open throughout a pandemic.
“There is no pandemic,” MacArthur had famously said, calling it the “virus of deception” perpetrated by “the arch deceiver Satan himself.”
At age 81, he was again at the forefront of the Evangelical world, seen as boldly standing up to oppressive government powers.
He’d had security guards keep out health inspectors. This was, the church said, a “Jesus Life Matters protest.”

It was the church vs. Satan.​

And the Christmas party would be a time to celebrate the people of God prevailing over the powers of darkness once again.
The legal tides were shifting in their favor. Days earlier, on November 26th, the Supreme Court had struck down restrictions on religious services in New York. Soon, Los Angeles County would have to follow suit.
The church leaders might have surmised the county would be forced to pay all legal bills. It would sound like a thrilling David and Goliath story.
At the Christmas party, according to GCC blogger
Modern Day Zorro
, MacArthur gave a speechwith these talking points:


Two Sundays later, he was seen to be out of breath.​

Even at age 81, MacArthur is typically vigorous—still the tall football player who’d kept the Evangelical world enthralled for decades.
The following week, he disappeared from public view. On Sunday, December 27th, he skipped preaching duties with an announcement he would be “resting.” There was talk of him having a “stomach bug.”
He admits now he knew it was COVID-19. Seven leaders who’d been at the staff Christmas party had also reportedly come down with the virus. MacArthur mentions his wife also caught it. As he puts it:

The church kept it quiet.​

County regulations required reporting whenever there were three infections within a fourteen day window. They could’ve been shut down—just when it’d seemed they’d prevailed.
They seem to have cracked down on any leaks. The Evangelical journalist Julie Roys reported at the time that church insiders “are being pressured not to report new COVID cases”—with staff apparently believing they would lose their jobs if they did.
It was a gamble that the MacArthurs would survive. If he or his wife died, or even had to go to the hospital, it’d become clear they’d attempted to conceal the infection.

On Sunday, January 3rd, he was again absent.​

This time the excuse was that he had to prepare for a conference which was to be held several months later. This seems so absurd that everyone at the church who was paying attention surely knew.
MacArthur was gone on the two following Sundays, but there was no explanation. Though he later says his illness lasted “a week and a half” it seems to have lasted a month.
On Sunday, January 23rd, he was back in the pulpit, but coughing. He barely referenced his absence, just saying it was “rare” for him to be away since “I love to minister the Word of God.”
And the church kept up public talk of being full of “divine immunity” — even as people were dying. When they did, COVID-19 seems not to have been mentioned at their funerals.

Wasn’t all Evangelical theology at stake?​

The idea is often suggested that God’s true believers are divinely protected by their spiritual status, even by the church building.
As MacArthur later explains the church’s legal wrangling with Los Angeles County: “it’s just amazing how the Lord has protected us, isn’t it?”
Had MacArthur acknowledged his infection at the time, he might have seemed less of God’s favorite than he’d like.
The church would’ve been widely mocked.
The advantages to concealing it were clear. He’d know that if he recovered, he’d seem strong, and be able to laugh off the virus that has everyone so scared. “The natural immunity that God has designed is the greatest protection,” he explains now, since “God has a way of taking care of us as we love each other and share our germs.”
This is not quite saying the human immune system is adequate to resisting the virus. There is that special ingredient of the “love” shared at Grace Community Church — as flows through him, its pastor.

By late August, the church had been able to compel the government to pay its legal bills.​

Los Angeles County and the state of California had to combine to pay a settlement of $800,000.
It could read to the church’s supporters as their divine victory—not just over the oppressive government, but over the virus itself.
As MacArthur explains in a recent Q&A, he didn’t think the virus was very contagious.

He added: “I wanted to encourage you that, spiritually speaking, this is the best place you could be.”

The episode seems to explain so much of Evangelical culture.​

The markers of success that they focused on were achieved by lies.
There seems to have been no internal church pressure for MacArthur to report his infection. He might have been faulted for it if he had.
He writes now to his supporters:

Lying is the very activity he’d assigned to ‘Satan’. But all that is just talk. What matters is the theater of ‘victory’. 🔶
For me, when the law of the land says comply with something in the interest of dealing with a disease that has killed many globally and then deliberately not to, was the biggest issue. It could be described in a number of ways; wreckless self-centeredness and of course rebellion are the first things that come to mind. I think the rebellion and the Burger King "Have It Your Way" would be fine with me, if they would continue to isolate as a whole away from interacting with the general public.
 

Nic

Well-known member
The hypocrisy is enthralling. I guess the reason why the church needed to remain open was to keep up its income at the expense of the health of the congregation. We know what matters: John F. MacArthur Jr, Net Worth in 2021: $14 million

The irony is that John F. MacArthur Jr, is reputed to be an adherent of "Lordship salvation."

Proponents of Lordship salvation criticize "free grace" opponents as advocating an acquiescence in sin by allowing greatly sinful behavior to exist together with the same assurance of salvation as someone who does not currently allow greatly sinful behavior, and is to some degree subduing sin."

In 1988, John F. MacArthur Jr published the first edition of "The Gospel According to Jesus". By defining salvation by what it produces and what salvation will not fail to produce, (not only glorification, but good works, repentance, faith, sanctification, yieldedness, and obedience), the book not only heavily spread the extent of the debate, but the debate expanded in scope, from questions about conversion issues, to questions about what is also necessary, and who it is who does what, throughout the Christian life."


So by his own measure, John F. MacArthur Jr may not be saved, since Rev 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and "all liars," shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Lol , doesn't your pastor make millions? Lol
 

Nic

Well-known member
I don't believe it was morally wrong. I live in Arizona, and I never have even been tested. As far as I know, I havent broken any laws. I guess California has different laws. I guess it comes down to whether it is a just or unjust law. I personally wont obey unjust laws.
In think this is a reasonable reply, my biggest issue as stated was his church members mixing in public while withholding the information being sought to protect his / their countrymen.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
In think this is a reasonable reply, my biggest issue as stated was his church members mixing in public while withholding the information being sought to protect his / their countrymen.
I hadn't read any of the replies until just now. Thank you.

I don't know anything about what happens inside or out of MacArthurs church. Although I am Reformed(Baptist) I agree with what @cjab mentioned here:

The irony is that John F. MacArthur Jr, is reputed to be an adherent of "Lordship salvation."

Proponents of Lordship salvation criticize "free grace" opponents as advocating an acquiescence in sin by allowing greatly sinful behavior to exist together with the same assurance of salvation as someone who does not currently allow greatly sinful behavior, and is to some degree subduing sin."

In 1988, John F. MacArthur Jr published the first edition of "The Gospel According to Jesus". By defining salvation by what it produces and what salvation will not fail to produce, (not only glorification, but good works, repentance, faith, sanctification, yieldedness, and obedience), the book not only heavily spread the extent of the debate, but the debate expanded in scope, from questions about conversion issues, to questions about what is also necessary, and who it is who does what, throughout the Christian life."

So by his own measure, John F. MacArthur Jr may not be saved, since Rev 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and "all liars," shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Now, I don't believe in the doctrine of "Lordship Salvation", or "Free Grace" but rather "Free and Sovereign Grace". This is what I believe closest resembles the gospel. Off topic, sorry, I love discussing this.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
The hypocrisy is enthralling.
It would appear that you are enthralled by hypocrisy.
Guess again.
We know what matters: John F. MacArthur Jr, Net Worth in 2021: $14 million
wiki is notorious for propagating false information.
So by his own measure, John F. MacArthur Jr may not be saved,
By the biblical measure as well, but then there's no doubt he would admit that as well. No one is saved by works. That's what the whole "Grace to you" message is all about.
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
For me, when the law of the land says comply with something in the interest of dealing with a disease that has killed many globally and then deliberately not to, was the biggest issue. It could be described in a number of ways; wreckless self-centeredness and of course rebellion are the first things that come to mind. I think the rebellion and the Burger King "Have It Your Way" would be fine with me, if they would continue to isolate as a whole away from interacting with the general public.
This assumes that the narrative being spread by the government is accurate. The law of the land was not being upheld in the first place. Governors are not legally allowed to lockdown their state when there isn't sufficient evidence of a pandemic. There wasn't, and still isn't any evidence of an epidemic or even a pandemic. The CDC has admitted as much already by pointing out that the PCR test which was used to diagnose "the cases" is not accurate enough to identify SARS Cov 2 or distinguish it from anything else.

Moreover, the cycle threshold was far higher than recommended by the manufacturers as well as the inventor who both point out that it was never intended to diagnose anything.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Lol , doesn't your pastor make millions? Lol
A few million dollars is chump change compared to what your local Congressman makes, never mind what the corporatocracy rakes in every year. John MacArthur probably tithes more than you'll make over the course of your lifetime.

I love it when materialistic people get jealous over how much money someone else is making, especially when those making those millions probably couldn't care less. It spotlights how money means nothing to those who have real wealth while "whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath." Matthew 13:12

There's nothing left for them except to wail and gnash their teeth.
 
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Nic

Well-known member
This assumes that the narrative being spread by the government is accurate.
True, I never said otherwise. But we are subjects of our government. Secular authorities are used by God to maintain order and we are to comply or face consequences.
The law of the land was not being upheld in the first place. Governors are not legally allowed to lockdown their state when there isn't sufficient evidence of a pandemic. There wasn't, and still isn't any evidence of an epidemic or even a pandemic. The CDC has admitted as much already by pointing out that the PCR test which was used to diagnose "the cases" is not accurate enough to identify SARS Cov 2 or distinguish it from anything else.
I'm not from California but each state should be able rule autonomously as it sees fit if it isn't in violation of federal law. You may be more informed here, I despised politics with a passion so I plead ignorance as to what may or may not be done legally, I'm only stating how I believe things should be addressed. The article I suppose was misleading in one or more ways. But this is new territory for us in the way we are dealing with this virus and as a result there has been met innovation, legal or otherwise, it seems
Moreover, the cycle threshold was far higher than recommended by the manufacturers as well as the inventor who both point out that it was never intended to diagnose anything.
You lost me here. I probably overlooked something in the article, sorry.
 
Last edited:

Nic

Well-known member
What country are you from? Americans are citizens, not subjects. We went to war because we knew free men are not subjects.
A citizen is a subject. If you don't think so become a criminal and see what happens.
 

cjab

Well-known member
It would appear that you are enthralled by hypocrisy.
So was Jesus, in a negative sort of way. I think it's reasonable to take note of it. Killing off your congregation for the sake of profit isn't a good witness.

Guess again.
I don't need to guess again. I was right first time. Where I live the Anglican church reported this:

"We estimate a financial loss to our parish churches of £8m-£11m for each week they are closed. This is primarily because of a cessation in collection plate funds coming in, as well as the associated Gift Aid."

wiki is notorious for propagating false information.
Haven't you got some plausible point to make?

By the biblical measure as well, but then there's no doubt he would admit that as well. No one is saved by works. That's what the whole "Grace to you" message is all about.
If you'd bothered to read what I wrote, you would have discovered the Pastor is an advocate of "saved but only if there is evidence of Lordship." So the argument still connects to works in a very big way. Only it's not saved by works; rather works are needed as evidence of salvation.
 

Nic

Well-known member
No-one in that league where I live except for the black pastors of the black pentecostal mega churches.
Word of Faith and megachurch types. I had a pastor who had to work as a painter until his little church had to have a going out if business sale.
Average church size used to be 72 in the USA, not sure about today, but I have concerns about pastors who make millions, but maybe I'm missing something. I guess when I have millions 🤣 I'll have a better idea about what is and isn't too much. I once heard a man explain how this millionaire status for a certain individual who had some sort of Christian ministry was perhaps the only person who could have access and reach certain individuals in attempts to justify that status. That's about all I recall about that situation and that's been maybe 3 or 4 decades ago. I do recall why the bystander was conflicted and he wasn't alone, it was flashy expensive car the minister drove.
Was I jealous? Of course I was. Lol
 
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