Was it right for John MacArthur to conceal the fact that he had Covid?

cjab

Well-known member
These attacks on MacArthur are silly. First, you must not know many pastors. If you did, you'd know the work of a pastor goes on whether the church doors are open or not.
I'n not disputing it.

Second, why should MacArthur not be paid for his work, as the Bible says?
I should imagine he's considerably richer than most of his congregation and can afford not to be paid during the pandemic.

But the real issue is that COVID is a killer disease and he is putting the lives of his congregation at serious risk. Many COVID outbreaks have happened at churches, especially Mega churches.

Personally I wouldn't be seen anywhere near that church. I suspect that it has a strong cultic element to it.

Third, isn't it a little dishonest of you to imply that most of his money comes from his church salary, and not from the million's of books he's sold?
In fact I didn't even mention his salary. I was referring to the income of the church, which is clearly spent on many things. He was putting money before lives and health. Ever heard of "long covid?" It affects many who recover from covid and seriously impacts their lives for years to come. If I caught COVID at his mega church, and suffered lasting effects, I would find it hard to forgive him.

And this is relevant to whether or not he had COVID...how, exactl
What sort of pastor is it who exposes his flock to the wolf? It's alright if a pastor wants to charm snakes in the pulpit, but when he unleashes them into the congregation saying "they won't bite anyone who had genuine faith" (or some such rubbish), you've got to ask, "is the guy of sound mind?" Did Jesus tell him to expose his congregation to the risk to COVID? I think not.

Personally I hope some of his congregation sue him if they caught COVID at his church.

The Bible also says that slanderers, gossips, accusers, etc, will have their place in the Lake of Fire. So, I'd be more concerned about my own salvation if I were you.

But, back to the editorial...

Given the source, I'm skeptical. Likewise, given the fact that the only source that was provided was pretty benign and didn't support the editorial's claims, I'm skeptical.

Having followed MacArthur's ministry for about thirty years, and also following the ministry of Phil Johnson and a couple of MacArthur's other proteges, I am familiar enough with the church's beliefs to know that some of the editorial's claims are not accurate.

The author seems to hang his argument on the fact that an 81 year old man had shortness of breath. By that logic, every 81 year old man must have COVID

I have no reason to believe it wasn't a "stomach bug", as he said.
None of this matters. If your government advises you to do something to protect your congregation from a health scare, and you ignore it because you maintain that "There is no pandemic....it is a virus of deception ... perpetrated by the arch deceiver Satan himself," IMHO you are a raving lunatic who ought to be confined.

4.6 million + have died from COVID per WHO (probably far more as deaths are woefully under-reported in many countries)

In fact I wasn't nearly hard enough on this guy in my original post. but he may just be senile.
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
But the real issue is that COVID is a killer disease
Yes, it kills a little less than 1% of the people who get it. Hardly an extinction level event.
and he is putting the lives of his congregation at serious risk. Many COVID outbreaks have happened at churches, especially Mega churches.
First, you have to get it. Then, if you get it, the morbidity rate is around 1%.

Second, is he forcing people to go?
Personally I wouldn't be seen anywhere near that church. I suspect that it has a strong cultic element to it.
Careful. The Bible says slanderers will have their place in the Lake of Fire.
In fact I didn't even mention his salary. I was referring to the income of the church
You lie. You said
cjab said:
We know what matters: John F. MacArthur Jr, Net Worth in 2021: $14 million
, which is clearly spent on many things. He was putting money before lives and health. Ever heard of "long covid?" It affects many
How many. Let's see stats and sources. Otherwise, you're full of it.
who recover from covid and seriously impacts their lives for years to come. If I caught COVID at his mega church, and suffered lasting effects, I would find it hard to forgive him.
If it's as bad as you say, then why would you go there? Seems like that would be pretty irresponsible of you.
What sort of pastor is it who exposes his flock to the wolf?
Another accusation you can't back up.
None of this matters. If your government advises you to do something to protect your congregation from a health scare, and you ignore it because you maintain that "There is no pandemic....it is a virus of deception ... perpetrated by the arch deceiver Satan himself," IMHO you are a raving lunatic who ought to be confined.
And if you believe the government after they've lied repeatedly and been wrong about virtually everything, and have politicized a disease, then you're a brain dead idiot.
4.6 million + have died from COVID
And how many of those were in Orange County?
In fact I wasn't nearly hard enough on this guy in my original post. but he may just be senile.
I'm more confident that you're senile than him.
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
True, I never said otherwise. But we are subjects of our government.
Technically, those who refer to themselves as "citizens" are subject to the governments. However, "we the people" are sovereign over the governments which serve them.
Secular authorities are used by God to maintain order and we are to comply or face consequences.
That's debatable.
I'm not from California but each state should be able rule autonomously as it sees fit if it isn't in violation of federal law.
Federal Law was originally intended to protect the states, not regulate them, or exert power over them.
You may be more informed here, I despised politics with a passion so I plead ignorance as to what may or may not be done legally, I'm only stating how I believe things should be addressed.
There are already numerous lawsuits being pursued across the country against State and Federal overreach.
this is new territory for us in the way we are dealing with this virus
A virus that has yet to even be isolated and identified. Forget about anyone supplying the least shred of evidence supporting the claim that this unidentified virus is causing this alleged pandemic.
and as a result there has been met innovation, legal or otherwise, it seems
I'm not following what you posted here.
You lost me here. I probably overlooked something in the article, sorry.
The inventor of the PCR test as well as the numerous manufacturers all point out that the PCR test is for research purposes only, can cannot accurately be used for diagnoses, yet the CDC, WHO, etc. have all suggested that these tests be used to diagnose Covid 19. Not only that, but the testing equipment is guaranteed to provide a false positive once the cycle threshold is set over 30. The CDC suggested they run the CT at over 35 or 40. Now they're admitting that the PCR testing equipment isn't accurate enough, and should be replaced by the end of the year.

In other words, they're admitting that the equipment used to defend their claim of a pandemic isn't accurate at all. There was no pandemic. If we look at the overall death rate, it is too insignificant to matter. More importantly, we should also note that as the so-called Covid deaths rose, all other causes of death declined. Just a coincidence? Did Covid suddenly cure the flu, cancer, heart disease, etc.?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
So was Jesus,
No, he wasn't. He was enthralled with the love of God.
Killing off your congregation for the sake of profit isn't a good witness.
Killing off your congregation abolishes all profit. I don't see his congregation being diminished in the slightest so you're not dealing with reality.
I don't need to guess again. I was right first time. Where I live the Anglican church reported this:

"We estimate a financial loss to our parish churches of £8m-£11m for each week they are closed. This is primarily because of a cessation in collection plate funds coming in, as well as the associated Gift Aid."
So you're taking your own church's focus on loss of revenue, and applying it to another completely different church. Yep, that's guessing.
Haven't you got some plausible point to make?
In this case, the point is that you're using notoriously questionable websites.
If you'd bothered to read what I wrote, you would have discovered the Pastor is an advocate of "saved but only if there is evidence of Lordship." So the argument still connects to works in a very big way.
Just not in the way you claim.
Only it's not saved by works; rather works are needed as evidence of salvation.
So connect the dots. Prove this all adds up to John MacArthur isn't saved. Better yet, why are you so interested in assuming John MacArthur isn't saved, and since when is following secular governments the gauge of one's salvation?
 

civic

Well-known member
So was Jesus, in a negative sort of way. I think it's reasonable to take note of it. Killing off your congregation for the sake of profit isn't a good witness.


I don't need to guess again. I was right first time. Where I live the Anglican church reported this:

"We estimate a financial loss to our parish churches of £8m-£11m for each week they are closed. This is primarily because of a cessation in collection plate funds coming in, as well as the associated Gift Aid."


Haven't you got some plausible point to make?


If you'd bothered to read what I wrote, you would have discovered the Pastor is an advocate of "saved but only if there is evidence of Lordship." So the argument still connects to works in a very big way. Only it's not saved by works; rather works are needed as evidence of salvation.
You think MacArthur teaches works based salvation ?

Have you ever listened to any of his sermons or read any of his books ?
 

cjab

Well-known member
No, he wasn't. He was enthralled with the love of God.
Non-sequitur. Ever read the gospel of Matthew?

Mat 16:6 "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."

Killing off your congregation abolishes all profit. I don't see his congregation being diminished in the slightest so you're not dealing with reality.
So we know COVID only kills 1% or less or the people who catch it. So what?

So you're taking your own church's focus on loss of revenue, and applying it to another completely different church. Yep, that's guessing.
That's not "my own church." What holds for one will likely hold for another, to a different degree.

In this case, the point is that you're using notoriously questionable websites.
Whether accurate or not isn't the issue. The issue is that he features on the website at all. Do you?

Just not in the way you claim.

So connect the dots. Prove this all adds up to John MacArthur isn't saved. Better yet, why are you so interested in assuming John MacArthur isn't saved, and since when is following secular governments the gauge of one's salvation?
I was judging him by his own standard. For to say: "COVID is a satanic deception," is of itself a satanic deception.
 

civic

Well-known member
Personally I agree that it can, but it isn't by necessity.
I've listened to him for the past 40 years and have read all his books on the gospel according to Jesus, the Apostles, Paul etc.... And many other books of his so I know he doesn't teach salvation by works. Genuine faith produces good works.
 
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cjab

Well-known member
I asked you if you have read his book that is a simple quetion its either yes you did or no you didn't and are relying on second hand sources.
You asked two questions. As to the second, no, I haven't read any of his books, as that isn't the kind of book I enjoy and the bible provides all the answers to such questions in any event.

The other question, on which the second was predicated, was "Do you think MacArthur teaches works based salvation"?

I accepted that he didn't precisely teach this, but rather a modified form. Rather he taught "Lordship salvation" whatever you see that as entailing, which from what I read, clearly demands a "certain standard" of repentance including "works" to evidence salvation at all.

From Wiki "The "lordship salvation" controversy (also "Lordship Controversy") is a theological dispute regarding key soteriological questions within Evangelical Christianity, involving some non-denominational and Evangelical churches in North America at least since the 1980s."

I do not wish to get involved in this controversy. I mentioned it because it was something that John F. MacArthur Jr was involved in.

From Wiki "In 1988, John F. MacArthur Jr published the first edition of "The Gospel According to Jesus". By defining salvation by what it produces and what salvation will not fail to produce, (not only glorification, but good works, repentance, faith, sanctification, yieldedness, and obedience) the book not only heavily spread the extent of the debate, but the debate expanded in scope, from questions about conversion issues, to questions about what is also necessary, and who it is who does what, throughout the Christian life. Using surrender language in the gospel became another issue."
 

cjab

Well-known member
Yes, it kills a little less than 1% of the people who get it. Hardly an extinction level event.

First, you have to get it. Then, if you get it, the morbidity rate is around 1%.

Second, is he forcing people to go?

Careful. The Bible says slanderers will have their place in the Lake of Fire.
He easily manifested a cultic element to his church by called COVID a satanic deception and asking his congregation to believe it, which presumably many did. This was after COVID had been rampaging throughout the world for around nine months. So this entails putting faith in the leader over the evidence, which is cultic.

Perhaps you should explain why this isn't cultic?

I remind you of the OP

"On December 8, 2020, Grace Community Church had a staff Christmas party. There were no masks or social distancing, as usual. The staff hugged and shook hands. The church had a lot to celebrate. They’d stayed open throughout a pandemic. “There is no pandemic,” MacArthur had famously said, calling it the “virus of deception” perpetrated by “the arch deceiver Satan himself."

You lie. You said
I did not lie. Where does the word "salary appear" in what I said?

How many. Let's see stats and sources. Otherwise, you're full of it.
"It estimated that almost 40 per cent of people who definitely had or thought they had Covid-19 still had at least one symptom lasting 12 weeks"

If it's as bad as you say, then why would you go there? Seems like that would be pretty irresponsible of you.

Another accusation you can't back up.

And if you believe the government after they've lied repeatedly and been wrong about virtually everything, and have politicized a disease, then you're a brain dead idiot.

And how many of those were in Orange County?

I'm more confident that you're senile than him.
I recall you said earlier: "Careful. The Bible says slanderers will have their place in the Lake of Fire. "

touché
 

Nic

Well-known member
I've listened to him for the past 40 years and have read all his books on the gospel according to Jesus, the Apostles, Paul etc.... And many other books of his so I know he doesn't teach salvation by works. Genuine faith produces good works.
For me part of the issue is Lordship Salvation and where a person finds their surety. Both Arminian and Calvinist camps have those that embrace and promote it. IMV, people simply do good works because they are saved. I believe the way the Reformed, at least some of them, go about it, they find motivation in the law to do good works. At least that is what I make of it. Lutherans don't march to that beat. 🙂
 

cjab

Well-known member
Word of Faith and megachurch types. I had a pastor who had to work as a painter until his little church had to have a going out if business sale.
Average church size used to be 72 in the USA, not sure about today, but I have concerns about pastors who make millions, but maybe I'm missing something. I guess when I have millions 🤣 I'll have a better idea about what is and isn't too much. I once heard a man explain how this millionaire status for a certain individual who had some sort of Christian ministry was perhaps the only person who could have access and reach certain individuals in attempts to justify that status. That's about all I recall about that situation and that's been maybe 3 or 4 decades ago. I do recall why the bystander was conflicted and he wasn't alone, it was flashy expensive car the minister drove.
Was I jealous? Of course I was. Lol
There seem to be two types of pastor: those who peddle the word of God for profit, and those who don't.

2Co 2:17 "Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God."

Interesting that Paul is insinuating that those who peddle the word of God for profit "don't" speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God.
 

civic

Well-known member
There seem to be two types of pastor: those who peddle the word of God for profit, and those who don't.

2Co 2:17 "Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God."

Interesting that Paul is insinuating that those who peddle the word of God for profit "don't" speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God.
Are you saying MacArthur peddles the gospel ? yes or no
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Non-sequitur. Ever read the gospel of Matthew?
Quite often.
Mat 16:6 "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."
Nice try, but FAIL Here's the definition of enthrall: "
capture the fascinated attention of.
"she had been so enthralled by the adventure that she had hardly noticed the cold"
synonyms:
captivate · charm · enchant · bewitch · fascinate · beguile · entrance · enrapture · 
[more]
So we know COVID only kills 1% or less or the people who catch it.
There are no purified or isolated samples. There is no evidence to prove your claim that anyone has died from Covid.
It's your claim. You're the one who thinks killing people increases profits, not me.
That's not "my own church." What holds for one will likely hold for another, to a different degree.
Says you. Prove it. Some churches are meticulous about taking care of their health through proper diet, exercise, etc. They are proactively immune from infection.
Whether accurate or not isn't the issue.
It most certainly is the issue. If the information isn't accurate, it's false, fake, etc. wiki is notorious for presenting false or misleading information which they refuse to correct even when it is supplied by those whom they presume to be describing.
The issue is that he features on the website at all.
Why wouldn't he? He's a public figure. Why wouldn't he be featured?
Why would I?
I was judging him by his own standard.
I haven't forgotten your position.
For to say: "COVID is a satanic deception," is of itself a satanic deception.
Please document how this is the case. If deception is being used, then it's Satanic, at least according to Christian understanding as all deception emanates from "the father of lies", i.e. Satan.

Clearly, the CDC, WHO, NIH, etc. are all using deception when they use testing equipment that was never designed to diagnose Covid, and using it improperly as well. Then they report those who die from anything from poisoning to "intentional and unintentional adverse events" as Covid deaths. That's not just deceptive, it's a joke that no one needs to take seriously.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Are you saying MacArthur peddles the gospel ? yes or no
I was responding to a post talking about rich pastors in general, not MacArthur in particular. MacArthur is one of a genre. You have to wonder what goes on in the mega churches. So many of their pastors have amassed $millions. I have no knowledge of or particular interest in MacArthur, so am not qualified to talk about him specifically.
 

civic

Well-known member
I was responding to a post talking about rich pastors in general, not MacArthur in particular. MacArthur is one of a genre. You have to wonder what goes on in the mega churches. So many of their pastors have amassed $millions. I have no knowledge of or particular interest in MacArthur, so am not qualified to talk about him specifically.
ok because I believe most of his financial gain has come from being an author with all of his best selling books.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Quite often.

Nice try, but FAIL Here's the definition of enthrall: "
capture the fascinated attention of.
"she had been so enthralled by the adventure that she had hardly noticed the cold"
synonyms:
captivate · charm · enchant · bewitch · fascinate · beguile · entrance · enrapture · 
[more]
May be I have an especial interest in hypocrisy. I'm allowed that liberty.

There are no purified or isolated samples. There is no evidence to prove your claim that anyone has died from Covid.
According to WHO and most of the countries in the world, many poeple have died.

You're entering conspiracy theory territory with this one.

It's your claim. You're the one who thinks killing people increases profits, not me.

Says you. Prove it. Some churches are meticulous about taking care of their health through proper diet, exercise, etc. They are proactively immune from infection.

It most certainly is the issue. If the information isn't accurate, it's false, fake, etc. wiki is notorious for presenting false or misleading information which they refuse to correct even when it is supplied by those whom they presume to be describing.
"Wikipedia considers the deliberate insertion of false and misleading information to be vandalism."

Why wouldn't he? He's a public figure. Why wouldn't he be featured?

Why would I?

I haven't forgotten your position.

Please document how this is the case. If deception is being used, then it's Satanic, at least according to Christian understanding as all deception emanates from "the father of lies", i.e. Satan.
It is a deception in itself to classify an objectively testable and verifiable disease as a hoax or satanic deception.

Clearly, the CDC, WHO, NIH, etc. are all using deception when they use testing equipment that was never designed to diagnose Covid, and using it improperly as well. Then they report those who die from anything from poisoning to "intentional and unintentional adverse events" as Covid deaths. That's not just deceptive, it's a joke that no one needs to take seriously.
Being attached to a ventilator, not being able to breath, and dying from that outcome, is indicative of a COVID death. I'm not going to discuss this with you further, because you are clearly under the influence of a CULT. Snap out of it.
 
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