Was Jesus wrong or mistaken, or are we?

[HillsboroMom]

Jesus predicted the end times.

He describes great tribulation. Nation divided against nation. Wars, natural disasters, famine. He predicted that his followers would be persecuted, and that false messiahs would arise.

And then he says, and I quote:

Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Mark 13:30, if you want to look it up.

That was about 2,000 years ago.

That generation has most certainly passed away.

So, was Jesus wrong?

Or are we?

Did Jesus make a mistake? A miscalculation error?

Or did Mark just get the quote wrong?

Or perhaps Jesus DID come back, and we missed it?

 

[En Hakkore]

Jesus predicted the end times.

He describes great tribulation. Nation divided against nation. Wars, natural disasters, famine. He predicted that his followers would be persecuted, and that false messiahs would arise.

And then he says, and I quote:

Mark 13:30, if you want to look it up.

That was about 2,000 years ago.

That generation has most certainly passed away.

So, was Jesus wrong?

Or are we?

Did Jesus make a mistake? A miscalculation error?

Or did Mark just get the quote wrong?

Or perhaps Jesus DID come back, and we missed it?

Mark 13:30 and other apocalyptic sayings of the gospels are, I think, part of an authentic stream of tradition emanating from the historical Jesus. That the end of the age predicted in these texts did not come to pass supports this historical claim for it is unlikely the various gospel authors would invent such difficult traditions. Indeed, each of the gospel authors wrestles with the failure of these apocalyptic expectations, refocusing them, for example, on the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (which arguably did happen within the time frame of a generation) or, in Luke's case, on a realized eschatology.

Interesting thread topic... thanks for starting it.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Chuckz]

Jesus predicted the end times.

He describes great tribulation. Nation divided against nation. Wars, natural disasters, famine. He predicted that his followers would be persecuted, and that false messiahs would arise.

And then he says, and I quote:

Mark 13:30, if you want to look it up.

That was about 2,000 years ago.

That generation has most certainly passed away.

So, was Jesus wrong?

Or are we?

Did Jesus make a mistake? A miscalculation error?

Or did Mark just get the quote wrong?

Or perhaps Jesus DID come back, and we missed it?

Third, "this generation" can mean those who will be alive and witness all the events of Mark 13:6–27, as implied in Mark 13:29 and Matthew 24:33.

What does Mark 13:30 mean? | BibleRef.com

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. - What is the meaning of Mark 13:30?

www.bibleref.com

b. This generation will be no means pass away till all these things take place: What generation did Jesus refer to? It cannot be the generation of the disciples, because they did not see the triumphant return of Jesus. It is undoubtedly the generation that will see these signs – especially the abomination of desolation. These events and Jesus’ return won’t be on some 1,000-year timetable, but will happen in succession.

i. It is also possible that the word generation can be understood as a race or people. This may be a promise that the Jewish race will not perish before history comes to a conclusion.

Study Guide for Mark 13 by David Guzik

David Guzik :: Study Guide for Mark 13

www.blueletterbible.org

Incidentally, the last days are the term made for the last 2,000 years as we are still living in the last days and getting closer than any generation has been to the tribulation period.

 

[Timtofly]

The generation that sees Israel restored as a Nation. The signs of the end surround the fig tree. There was only one sign fulfilled in 70AD. The destruction of the Temple. That sign sealed the fate of Israel as a nation. Obviously the Second Coming would only start with the restoration of Israel, then Jerusalem, and the restoration of a Temple would complete the sign of it's destruction.

We can argue about a definite length, but that may be futile as that has been debated since 1948. About the only thing left is who is going to be alive of the generation who witnessed 1948. Or even which generation witnessed it. Is 12 old enough or broad enough spread for a generation? So the generation of those born in 1936? So those who are over the age of 85 now will still see the Second Coming? There are still millions of people who are over 85. In 20 years those over 105 will drastically change, but some will still be around.

The emphasis was not on the destruction but the restoration. Jesus did not lie as we have not passed the point restoration began and all those who saw such restoration are now all dead. Perhaps revisit the point in 40 years? Of course if you say only those born in 1908 can be the deciding factor, there are not many alive who are over 113 years old. Yet your argument is getting pretty solid if the claim is Jesus lied. There are 15 documented at being 113. There are 11 people over 114. Still a slim margin of that generation who have not passed at the strictest sense of being 40 years old in 1948. Besides those 26, there are also 15 additional people born in 1908 itself.

So how would any one even get to choose the criteria of Jesus' statement? Some try to make history fit. Others try to set dates. That the church has been around for 1990 years should not be a shock or means of denying God's Word. Being born now, does not make one an expert of the 1st century, not even an expert skeptic.

 

[jamesh]

Mark 13:30 and other apocalyptic sayings of the gospels are, I think, part of an authentic stream of tradition emanating from the historical Jesus. That the end of the age predicted in these texts did not come to pass supports this historical claim for it is unlikely the various gospel authors would invent such difficult traditions. Indeed, each of the gospel authors wrestles with the failure of these apocalyptic expectations, refocusing them, for example, on the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (which arguably did happen within the time frame of a generation) or, in Luke's case, on a realized eschatology.

Interesting thread topic... thanks for starting it.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

Hey Jonathan! Just to back up what you stated we have to pay attention to the words of Jesus. He said at verse 2, "And He answered and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down." Again, this happened within their generation as you stated.

Also, what did not happen then was the disciples question at verse 3. "and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age/world?" Jesus gives us the "tipoff" (at least in my opinion) at verse 15, "Therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place," what do we do, "flee."

In Him,
herman

 

[HillsboroMom]

My belief is this:

Jesus was not, in that comment, referring to the end of the world, some future event that has not (as of January 17, 2021) happened.

Jesus was referring to his resurrection.

In other words, if you're waiting for it, you missed it already.

Especially when we consider the WHOLE of Jesus' message.

Both before and after his resurrection, he told his disciples what they ought to be doing: feeding the hungry, healing the sick, giving aid to the orphan and the widow. If your neighbor has no cloak, and you have two, give him one of yours (that commie!?!?!?!)

Because we would always have the poor with us, but we would not always have Jesus with us. Except, he reminds us that we WOULD always have him with us...

Because whatever we do for "the least of these," we do to him.

Jesus is still very much here, among us. Every time we cross the street to avoid that smelly drunk asleep on the road, we avoid Jesus. Every time we find a new tax deduction to avoid paying something, we deduct Jesus out of our lives. (And I'm convicting myself with these very words.)

I think some of us are looking up to the skies and all over, waiting for something that will never happen, looking for Jesus in all the wrong places, that we're missing him right here, right now.

 

[Stirling Bartholomew]

Jesus is still very much here, among us. Every time we cross the street to avoid that smelly drunk asleep on the road, we avoid Jesus.

Why drunks? What about sex-offenders you gonna invite them in for dinner? Give them a room for the night? Friend of mine (half my age) is managing a house in North Tacoma owned by a former registered sex-offender which provides housing for people who can't find housing because they are registered sex-offenders. My friend has also worked for Congregations for the Homeless as a house manager and recruiter. He has applied for several several similar jobs in Seattle and is waiting to find work. His previous employment as an electrician went away during the shutdown. He has been working three jobs to survive. In his mid 20s he was busted for online behavior which put him on the registry for 10 years. He knows what it is like to be an untouchable. We've been friends for 20 years.

I don't think your analysis of the eschatology in the olivet discourse really answers the question that you raised in your original post. That question is difficult. There are shrink wrapped "apologetic" responses which I wouldn't bother with.

 

[Stirling Bartholomew]

I am not suggesting you should invite them in for dinner or give them a room for the night. Gib Martin who was my mentor tried that. He was living with his wife and three daughters in 1500sqft rambler and had an alcoholic spending the night in the house. His wife objected. So we opened a shelter funded by a tiny church with a tiny budget. Staffed it with volunteers. One of his daughters married a recovering addict. This kind of work has risks. It isn't like you get a free pass for doing something like this. None of us got a free pass. We were all people with our own set of problems. Serious problems.

 

[jamesh]

My belief is this:

Jesus was not, in that comment, referring to the end of the world, some future event that has not (as of January 17, 2021) happened.

Jesus was referring to his resurrection.

In other words, if you're waiting for it, you missed it already.

Especially when we consider the WHOLE of Jesus' message.

Both before and after his resurrection, he told his disciples what they ought to be doing: feeding the hungry, healing the sick, giving aid to the orphan and the widow. If your neighbor has no cloak, and you have two, give him one of yours (that commie!?!?!?!)

Because we would always have the poor with us, but we would not always have Jesus with us. Except, he reminds us that we WOULD always have him with us...

Because whatever we do for "the least of these," we do to him.

Jesus is still very much here, among us. Every time we cross the street to avoid that smelly drunk asleep on the road, we avoid Jesus. Every time we find a new tax deduction to avoid paying something, we deduct Jesus out of our lives. (And I'm convicting myself with these very words.)

I think some of us are looking up to the skies and all over, waiting for something that will never happen, looking for Jesus in all the wrong places, that we're missing him right here, right now.

Who taught you this stuff HillsboroMom? Jesus specifically address the question His disciples ask Him, it could not be more clear at Matthew 24:3 and following. There is nothing in the text about His resurrection. In fact, He can't come back a second time unless He already had resurrected. Just read Matthew 24:29-31, and Hebrews 9:28.

And one more thing? "Looking for Jesus/love in all the wrong places has nothing to do with the song sung by Johnny Lee in 1980. Please, study your Bible.

In Him,
herman

 

[HillsboroMom]

Who taught you this stuff HillsboroMom?

As I said in the post, I get it from reading the entire Bible, rather than relying on one verse and then just regurgitating whatever I've been taught.

Also, I get it from prayer and meditation on God.

Thanks for asking.

And one more thing? "Looking for Jesus/love in all the wrong places has nothing to do with the song sung by Johnny Lee in 1980.

I am not familiar with Johnny Lee. In 1980 I was not listening to the radio much, so if he was a pop star or something, I wouldn't know about it. I was kind of a nerd and mostly listening to classical music back then. Sorry.

I'm not sure why you feel a need to tell me that "looking for Jesus in all the wrong places" has nothing to do with a song I'm not familiar with. I never implied it did. Since I'm not familiar with the song.

Please, study your Bible.

Thanks. You too!

 

[HillsboroMom]

Why drunks? What about sex-offenders you gonna invite them in for dinner? Give them a room for the night? Friend of mine (half my age) is managing a house in North Tacoma owned by a former registered sex-offender which provides housing for people who can't find housing because they are registered sex-offenders. My friend has also worked for Congregations for the Homeless as a house manager and recruiter. He has applied for several several similar jobs in Seattle and is waiting to find work. His previous employment as an electrician went away during the shutdown. He has been working three jobs to survive. In his mid 20s he was busted for online behavior which put him on the registry for 10 years. He knows what it is like to be an untouchable. We've been friends for 20 years.

I don't think your analysis of the eschatology in the olivet discourse really answers the question that you raised in your original post. That question is difficult. There are shrink wrapped "apologetic" responses which I wouldn't bother with.

I think your friend is doing the Lord's work! That's awesome, and God bless him.

 

[HillsboroMom]

I am not suggesting you should invite them in for dinner or give them a room for the night. Gib Martin who was my mentor tried that. He was living with his wife and three daughters in 1500sqft rambler and had an alcoholic spending the night in the house. His wife objected. So we opened a shelter funded by a tiny church with a tiny budget. Staffed it with volunteers. One of his daughters married a recovering addict. This kind of work has risks. It isn't like you get a free pass for doing something like this. None of us got a free pass. We were all people with our own set of problems. Serious problems.

No one said it would be easy. There's nothing in the Bible to suggest if you do what God asks, life is going to be sunshine and lollipops.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Jesus predicted the end times.

He describes great tribulation. Nation divided against nation. Wars, natural disasters, famine. He predicted that his followers would be persecuted, and that false messiahs would arise.

And then he says, and I quote:

Mark 13:30, if you want to look it up.

That was about 2,000 years ago.

That generation has most certainly passed away.

So, was Jesus wrong?

Or are we?

Did Jesus make a mistake? A miscalculation error?

Or did Mark just get the quote wrong?

Or perhaps Jesus DID come back, and we missed it?

Jesus did not make a mistake. Even the suggestion of such a thing is just plain wrong.

We have been having earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, famine, etc. We still are.

Perhaps this will be helpful:

 

[HillsboroMom]

Jesus did not make a mistake. Even the suggestion of such a thing is just plain wrong.

We have been having earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, famine, etc. We still are.

Perhaps this will be helpful:

Perhaps you didn't read the rest of my post? I thought I was pretty clear in saying I didn't think it was Jesus who was wrong, but those who (mis)-translate him.

Sorry if it wasn't clear enough.

IMHO, God don't make mistakes!

Thanks for your post.

 

[En Hakkore]

Hey Jonathan! Just to back up what you stated...

Thanks Herman... there is certainly some overlap between our positions (for example, on the importance of Jerusalem's destruction in understanding early Christian eschatological thinking), though I think there is a significant point on which we disagree. If I'm understanding you correctly, your answer to the question posed in the thread header, as applied to Christians of the late first century, is that they were mistaken and therefore realigned their thinking with Jesus' ostensible original intent. I affirm instead the first proposition, namely that Jesus predicted the imminent end of the world and that Christians of the late first century readjusted their thinking when and because this end failed to materialize. While I can appreciate that this idea of Jesus making a mistake may be troubling to many Christians, it does follow from a reading of the pertinent texts.

we have to pay attention to the words of Jesus.

The problem is that we have no unmediated access to the words of the historical Jesus, only as they appear in the gospel texts and they do not read word for word if read horizontally across parallel sections so some, if not all, of these authors are reworking oral traditions or earlier written sources. Again, this may be troubling to many Christians, but these are indisputable textual facts that cannot be ignored.

He said at verse 2, "And He answered and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down." Again, this happened within their generation as you stated.

Yes, but the verse cited in the thread opener (Mark 13:30) refers to the present generation not passing away until all these things have taken place... and, back in v24, the coming of the Son of Man (v26) is connected to the days of suffering associated with the siege of Jerusalem. I would encourage you to check out the parallel texts of Matthew and Luke, however, looking particularly for their editorial changes... they are sometimes subtle, but very significant in revising the eschatological timeline found in Mark by inserting a period of indeterminate length before the end. We can explore these in closer details, if you wish...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Beloved Daughter]

NT

 

[HillsboroMom]

The problem is that we have no unmediated access to the words of the historical Jesus, only as they appear in the gospel texts

I just wanted to highlight this. Thank you!!!!

 

[En Hakkore]

I just wanted to highlight this. Thank you!!!!

You're welcome... hopefully you will take the post I'm currently working on in response to your follow up in the constructive spirit it is offered.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[En Hakkore]

Jesus was referring to his resurrection.

I respectfully disagree with this evaluation of the pertinent texts. According to the chronology of the gospels that include the prediction to which you refer (Matthew, Mark and Luke), this was uttered a few days before Jesus' death and resurrection are narrated... with the exception of the resurrection as alleged fulfillment, nothing else and particularly the destruction of the temple, false messiahs, Jesus' own disciples being hauled off in front of governors and kings and the gospel being preached to the entire world took place or even conceivably could in that short interval.

In other words, if you're waiting for it, you missed it already.

Especially when we consider the WHOLE of Jesus' message.

Both before and after his resurrection, he told his disciples what they ought to be doing: feeding the hungry, healing the sick, giving aid to the orphan and the widow. If your neighbor has no cloak, and you have two, give him one of yours (that commie!?!?!?!)

Because we would always have the poor with us, but we would not always have Jesus with us. Except, he reminds us that we WOULD always have him with us...

Because whatever we do for "the least of these," we do to him.

Jesus is still very much here, among us. Every time we cross the street to avoid that smelly drunk asleep on the road, we avoid Jesus. Every time we find a new tax deduction to avoid paying something, we deduct Jesus out of our lives. (And I'm convicting myself with these very words.)

I think some of us are looking up to the skies and all over, waiting for something that will never happen, looking for Jesus in all the wrong places, that we're missing him right here, right now.

I have few objections to anything you write here though I suspect we are not anticipating Jesus' return for entirely different reasons. Luke, in particular, writes for an audience who needs to brace themselves for the long haul in which followers of Jesus must tend to the needs of the poor and downtrodden... his is something of a realized eschatology. That said, he does expect Jesus to return at some indeterminate point in the future (Acts 1:11), in the meantime, believers need to take their eyes off the heavens and attend to the business of ministering to the world.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[HillsboroMom]

I respectfully disagree with this evaluation of the pertinent texts. <snip for brevity > in the meantime, believers need to take their eyes off the heavens and attend to the business of ministering to the world.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

I would say we have different specific interpretations, but we come to the same conclusion. Would you agree with that?