RCM
Active member
En Hakkore,
The direct literary relationship between Matthew, Mark, and Luke is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit
RCM
Was Jesus wrong or mistaken, or are we?
- Thread starter HillsboroMom
- Start date
En Hakkore,
The direct literary relationship between Matthew, Mark, and Luke is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit
RCM
RCM
Active member
En Hakkore,
This is the common assessment of literary documents from a secular human point of view
And that is why liberal academic scholarship holds your view, because they cannot accept the supernatural inspiration of the Holy Spirit
guiding the authors of the Biblical Gospels to write independently, yet with those similarities
To acknowledge independent authorship is to acknowledge a living God who has revealed His inspired living word of truth
RCM
En Hakkore
Well-known member
You've gone a full day now without posting anything else so I'm going to take this opportunity to respond to everything and ask that you post single linear responses moving forward. Your habit of posting a little bit here, a little bit there, then before I can respond a little bit more is a diffusion tactic I've observed and criticized of a particular LDS poster over on the Mormonism board. Please avail yourself of the built-in draft feature and post once rather than half a dozen or more times... thanks.
Kind regards,
Jonathan
You can make such a declaration, but it does not reflect the reality of what has transpired in this thread. You claimed here that the "many" are "gathering together the written accounts by the Apostles, which was [sic] handed down to them by the Apostles." That claim is erroneous, as I've shown... the recipient of what is handed down is the believing community of which Luke is a part, the "us" of verse 2.
I insinuated nothing, I flat out stated it and this is consistent with Luke's understanding of the eyewitnesses to Jesus' ministry being illiterates (cf. Acts 4:13). Verse 1 of Luke's prologue deals with written sources, verse 2 with oral sources... the author clearly prefers the latter, a sentiment also found in the testimony of Papias cited by Eusebius.
So now you think the "many" are authors themselves, not (just?) compilers of the apostles' works? Your claims about this group are inconsistent or at the very least confusing. In any case, the plausible reason for earlier sources not surviving is that their contents were incorporated into the now-canonical gospels.
Surely I do... of course, I don't think -- nor, more importantly, do I think Luke thought -- that the gospel we call Matthew was written by a disciple of Jesus. Luke expresses concern about order in his preface and Matthew's gospel deviates significantly from the order of Mark in its first half... while Luke certainly makes a few adjustments, his preference is clearly for Mark's order and not that of Matthew. This is one of several perceived deficiencies in Matthew's gospel from Luke's perspective... the other major one being the former's position (contra Luke's hero Paul) about being law observant. Early Christians no more agreed on such matters than contemporary ones do... as the CARM forums amply attest to.
You bold 'us' in a translation of Luke 1:1-2 and list several options of who this might be referring to (the third would appear to be the position I'm articulating so why you declare me in error while posting this as an option is anybody's guess) as if that somehow settles the matter. Strangely enough, the position you are articulating (the many = us) is not among them, for the obvious reason it is a complete misreading of the preface. What is included in your cut and paste (please cite your source moving forward, presumably some Bible software program) and which I find quite humorous is this (bolded emphases mine):
Did you actually read what you cut and pasted? That sounds a lot like the position I'm articulating and the one you're challenging...
You've yet to demonstrate one thing incompatible with dating Luke and Acts to the early second century... that this dating has implications you consider undesirable within your current paradigm is entirely irrelevant.
I agree... but that is your own argument concerning the author of Acts and Paul; I did nothing more than apply it to the gospel of Matthew to show how ludicrous it is when applied consistently as it regards information not supplied by an author.
The idea of a three-year ministry involving multiple trips between Galilee and Jerusalem for Passover derives only from the gospel of John... the other three gospels present a linear movement from Galilee to Jerusalem whose time frame is undetermined.
Jesus has been resurrected from the dead by the end of all four gospels, yes... not sure what that has to do my comments about the ascension. Luke and the disputed longer ending of Mark both end after narrating Jesus' ascent into the sky (Luke 24:51; Mark 16:19)... there is also casual reference to a future ascension in John 20:17. As for Matthew's failure to mention it... if you concur that it is "absurd" to infer from this that it hadn't occurred yet when he wrote, then my point has been made and you have no basis to insist that Luke narrate Paul's death.
To what hard questions are you referring that I have allegedly avoided? Ask me a "hard question" concerning the dating of Luke-Acts and I'll answer it...
Neither Jesus nor a divine spirit are literary documents... and for whatever reason you refuse to admit the obvious, namely that there is some sort of literary relationship between these documents to account for the verbatim wording at points. I can only reiterate that this fact alone is of no consequence to the alleged divine inspiration of these documents as the plethora of Christians (including Augustine) both in the past and in the present who embrace some model of literary dependence. Why you continue to dance around the possibility without committing to it is anybody's guess... unless you are trying at all costs to avoid the next question, namely how to account for the differences in those places it is obvious one writer is using another as a source.
I'm quite certain that those people who do not identify as secular humanists are just as capable as those who do in identifying a case of copying when they see it... unless, apparently, one is engaging in special pleading concerning a text they hold to be sacred, in which case the blinders go on --- that is nothing to be proud of and there are, thankfully, many Christians who do not do this.
Kind regards,
Jonathan
I did not hear or read of any cosmological changes when the meads conquered Babylon; have you?
Read job 38:33,. There is the first instance that I found, other than perhaps some illusions in deuteronomy, which established the principle that heavens have ordinances and the Earth is the domain of those ordinances. In Job, I believe that he's referring to the physical cosmological heavens and earth. I.E. the laws of nature. But nonetheless a principal is established that the word heavens is associated with ordinances and Earth is associated with a domain of those ordinances
Likewise when we get to Isaiah 13 the heavens are the Babylonian religious administration and ordinances and the Earth was the kingdom of Babylon over which those ordinance has and religion had effect. When the medes conquered Babylon and laid at level some might say that system of Babylon was being judged. Their foundations and Earth were shaken.
So also when the Romans leveled Jerusalem it was in judgment for their rejection of Christ, their continuation in the ways prescribed by Moses, (now considered idolatry,) and their persecution of those who did not reject him. The religious ordinances (heavens)and the Stars (IE meaning the religious leaders of Judaism) were being judged as the domain of the land and people of the nation of Israel was being removed from her place, just as was said of babylon.
There needs to be no future implication or dual fulfillment for this to be fulfilled..
Last edited:
I don't necessarily agree that the religious freedoms were necessarily not Christian ones. If they were then they were part of the evidence of the Creator and of the people without the law glorifying the Creator even though they did not have the law as Paul talks of in Romans 1. The teachings and lifestyle of Grace would have reinforced if not the first to establish religious liberties and individual powers.
The focus on a future Kingdom denies the establishment of the present Kingdom by Christ and his coming and ministry. For the kingdom of God is within you he openly stated. The truth is of the creator and of his visitation should become sealed within us and affect our outlook on life and our care of the Earth our interaction with others, recognizing their divinity and free will etc etc.
When you say Christ was not establishing a kingdom on this Earth, I think you're referring to his conversation with pilot where he says as of now my kingdom is not of hence. I will add an article that I wrote which contains ten passages which are typically viewed in a futurist context but which under closer analysis refer to first century fulfillments.
Very briefly when Jesus was talking to palate he was in the exact location of pilots judgment seat. in the conversation with pilate it's evident that pilate is in a conversation and analysis to determine whether Jesus is a threat to the Roman empire and or him.
Jesus somewhat reassures him and then he also says; my kingdom is not of this world, (a territorial style of government), if my kingdom or of this world (territorial style of government) then my disciples would have fought but as of now my kingdom is not of hence. Jesus uses the word hence. Hence is a specific word meaning a specific location or in the midst of something. By saying that as of now my kingdom is not of hence I believe he was implying that one day his kingdom would be administered from hence, with the word hence meaning this precise location, referring to the authority of the Roman empire. And indeed within about 40 short years the kingdom of Christ and his judgement to favor the ordinces if the new covt was administered in power through the forces of the Roman empire as prophecies in deut 32:42.
Deu 32:42 LXXE I will make my weapons drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, it shall glut itself with the blood of the wounded, and from the captivity (possession) of the heads of their enemies that rule over them.
Last edited:
Hi Eve,. Here is a link to a article I posted in another section of the form. The discussion of jesus's conversation with pilot is one of the 10 passages discussed.
Two other passages pivotal to our discussion of the words heaven and Earth are the one on Matthew chapter 5 verse 17 and following and the item on 2nd Peter chapter 3.
Thanks for the respectful conversation.
In Revelation, I don't know the chapter and verse, but there is a place where the angel cries out that the kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of men or some similar words. I believe that that the time of that Deliverance of the Kingdom among men was the first century where the disciples possessed the kingdom as prophesied in Daniel chapter 7. It was shortly after Nero three and a half year persecution against them and then the judgment of God sat in came against the Jews who were persecuting them. It was time for the saints to possess the kingdom. Thus it is the continuation of the apostles who possess the Kingdom wants delivered among the saints. It is the progeny of those apostles who continue the kingdom.. the church in teaching a future Kingdom has done somewhat of a disservice to the growth of his kingdom and government. in Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6 and 7 it says concerning Christ that of the increase of his government end of Peace there shall be no end. Though we are constantly fed reminders of wars and we memorialize battlefields and other aspects of war, there are multitudes of persons and sects of people living in peace. All the best!
Two other passages pivotal to our discussion of the words heaven and Earth are the one on Matthew chapter 5 verse 17 and following and the item on 2nd Peter chapter 3.
Thanks for the respectful conversation.
In Revelation, I don't know the chapter and verse, but there is a place where the angel cries out that the kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of men or some similar words. I believe that that the time of that Deliverance of the Kingdom among men was the first century where the disciples possessed the kingdom as prophesied in Daniel chapter 7. It was shortly after Nero three and a half year persecution against them and then the judgment of God sat in came against the Jews who were persecuting them. It was time for the saints to possess the kingdom. Thus it is the continuation of the apostles who possess the Kingdom wants delivered among the saints. It is the progeny of those apostles who continue the kingdom.. the church in teaching a future Kingdom has done somewhat of a disservice to the growth of his kingdom and government. in Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6 and 7 it says concerning Christ that of the increase of his government end of Peace there shall be no end. Though we are constantly fed reminders of wars and we memorialize battlefields and other aspects of war, there are multitudes of persons and sects of people living in peace. All the best!
10 passages which allegedly prophesied future events but closer scrutiny reveals them as fulfilled
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OYDcdpkOIkI6KnI1uiYm80Id0_0FwfHXy5oE9MfYP4U/edit?usp=drivesdk
forums.carm.org
These are the ideas that I had in mind when saying that the kingdom of God has been delivered unto men. I think I was referring to Revelation 11:15, but Revelation 11:15 doesn't really say what I had thought it to say. The kingdom of Christ does however continue within those who abide in him,.
Revelation 12:10 is part of the understanding that I have of the kingdom of God being fully established on the Earth in those who abide in him bc and truth.. Quakers are close to this understanding and some preterist........ And I'm sure there's others.
*[[Rev 11:15/KJVLite]]* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
*[[Rev 12:10/KJVLite]]* And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Revelation 12:10 is part of the understanding that I have of the kingdom of God being fully established on the Earth in those who abide in him bc and truth.. Quakers are close to this understanding and some preterist........ And I'm sure there's others.
*[[Rev 11:15/KJVLite]]* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
*[[Rev 12:10/KJVLite]]* And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Last edited:
RCM
Active member
En Hakkore,
Irenaues used the long established existing Gospels to refute the heretical Gnostics and their lies, which also refutes your lies
Irenaeus states,
Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.
Irenaeus of Lyons. (1885). Irenæus against Heresies. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, p. 414). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.
Irenaeus states,
When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce:
Irenaeus of Lyons. (1885). Irenæus against Heresies. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, p. 415). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.
Irenaeus states,
But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth.
Irenaeus of Lyons. (1885). Irenæus against Heresies. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, p. 415). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.
Irenaeus states,
But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,—a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics.
Irenaeus of Lyons. (1885). Irenæus against Heresies. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, p. 416). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.
Irenaeus states,
I do know thee, the first-born of Satan.” Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth
Irenaeus of Lyons. (1885). Irenæus against Heresies. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, p. 416). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.
RCM
RCM
Active member
En Hakkore,
There was a Passover near the time Jesus chose His disciples
There was another Passover near the time of the feeding of the 'Five Thousand'
There was the last Passover at the time of the crucifixion
I do believe these events are attested to in all four Gospels
RCM
RCM
Active member
En Hakkore,
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the Sources for the Synoptic Gospels
Secular liberal scholarship refuses to acknowledge the supernatural power of God in the literary relationship
It most certainly destroys divine inspiration and you know it. Secular liberal scholarship reduces three witnesses to one witness. Whatever
you determine is your literary source, the resulting documents are nothing more than edited redactions
There are at least twenty two theories regarding the Synoptic Problem and all of them are heresy
To question the fact that God can tell a man what to say (Jeremiah) or what to write (John in Revelation) is the work of satan (Genesis 3)
If you approach the Bible as just the writing of mere men then you can critique it in the manner by which men write
However, if the Bible is God's inspired word, then God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the source and three authors documenting what
God has said, are three independent witnesses of the same event
But unbelievers, heretics, and hucksters cannot tolerate God's living word, so they must discredit it
RCM
RCM
Active member
En Hakkore,
Here the other shoe finally drops,
I believe the Bible is God's living sacred word, and you do not, so you seek to discredit it
As I mentioned before, make sure you study Luke 16:19-31 and Matthew 12:36-37 well, because one day you will find yourself
standing before the Carpenter from Nazareth (Hebrews 9:27-28)
You are a slave to sin and Jesus is the only one who can redeem you
RCM
En Hakkore
Well-known member
I asked you politely to continue our dialogue in linear fashion... you ignored that request and instead escalated your rants by implicitly accusing me of lying, labelling everyone who thinks there is a literary relationship between the gospels heretics (which is pretty much every Christian scholar today as well as Augustine), aligning my posts with a diabolical agent of evil and threatening me with Bible verses. This is the behavior of someone who has no cogent rebuttal and in desperation turns to personal attacks. I leave you to your mud-slinging...
Kind regards,
Jonathan
RCM
Active member
En Hakkore,
One more post and then I am done as well,
The only reason I stuck my nose into your discussion on this thread was because you were discrediting the authority of the Gospels
and telling Christians that the Gospels and the Person of Jesus were not everything Christians had been taught they were
Irenaeus is not cogent rebuttal?
Irenaeus, (who had direct ties to Polycarp who had been a disciple of the Apostle John), documents all of the Gospels as having long been established and refers to them as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and Irenaeus used these Gospels as a basis to refute Gnostic heresies in the second century
Irenaeus completely exposes and refutes any new secular liberal scholarship theory (that proposes late dating of the Gospels to the second century and further denying that the Biblical Gospels were authored by the Apostles and men Church History declared were the authors), to be nothing but fraud and lies
To any Bible Believing Christians who read this post, know that Irenaeus (Early Church Father) fully supports the Gospels as independent witnesses written by the Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21)
RCM
Last edited: