Was Paul the Thirteenth Apostle of Jesus?

Fred

Well-known member
Peter was an original apostle, his words carry more weight than Paul's.

 

e v e 21

Well-known member
if you throw out paul, then you threw away all scripture and may as well join/be in a different religion…

paul tells what he learned from God. Paul had access to God. The apostles had access to God. They were not ‘authors’ writing down their own ideas.

Just as with the prophets God spoke to them.
 
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e v e 21

Well-known member
Who is an apostle or prophet?
God chose humble souls
who could hear Him…

Not esaus
who stepped in to corrupt
our understanding of God’s words to us
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
if you throw out paul, then you threw away all scripture and may as well join/be in a different religion…

paul tells what he learned from God. Paul had access to God. The apostles had access to God. They were not ‘authors’ writing down their own ideas.

Just as with the prophets God spoke to them.
If one took out everything in the book except what was quoted of Jesus and what he taught we should be like him in the Father, you would have a whole different outlook on the purpose for God in man if you know only that what Jesus said and taught by example.

All of these who wrote in the Bible had their own experiences with God and wrote their experiences through their experiences. People such as Paul was like any other preacher today adding in his own opinions based upon his own experiences which most of the time is very limited to God actual purpose fo r man to be like Him. But because of the laws such as those Paul impimimnted, a whole lat more people follow Paul as a sinner that he preached we are then to be the righteousness of God to be like Him as Jesus taught, perfect, holy, ore and without sin.

If ones experience with God isn't the same as the experience Jesus had with God and walk in the same standards of Christ that Jesus did, then you are taking the opinions of those who wrote their own instead of Jesus who had his own.

Ironic is, Jesus comes to the last point in his efforts to get people saved by God and mad the most profound statement in the whole bible, that in that day ye shall ask me noting but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it you. How many actually have reached that end? How many actually have that same communication with God that Jesus had and walk as He walks, same mind, same God be in you who was in Christ Jesus? Not very many are like Him as He demands of us are they?

Not many hear Him as Jesus described you would in that do they? And in that inability to communicate with God themselves corrupt Jesus intent to be like the Father yourself. Paul was master at diverting people to his beliefs away from Christ to be like the Father and anointed of Him to hear from Him yourself as Jesus did.

How do you know you have reached that end? Compare yourself with the example God sent for us to follow and be like, if there is anything in you that is different from Jesus then you do not follow the way of Jesus at all.

Now watch how most will defend Paul in his ways for imperfections instead of Jesus in his ways for perfections. .
 
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e v e 21

Well-known member
If one took out everything in the book except what was quoted of Jesus and what he taught we should be like him in the Father, you would have a whole different outlook on the purpose for God in man if you know only that what Jesus said and taught by example.

All of these who wrote in the Bible had their own experiences with God and wrote their experiences through their experiences. People such as Paul was like any other preacher today adding in his own opinions based upon his own experiences which most of the time is very limited to God actual purpose fo r man to be like Him. But because of the laws such as those Paul impimimnted, a whole lat more people follow Paul as a sinner that he preached we are then to be the righteousness of God to be like Him as Jesus taught, perfect, holy, ore and without sin.

If ones experience with God isn't the same as the experience Jesus had with God and walk in the same standards of Christ that Jesus did, then you are taking the opinions of those who wrote their own instead of Jesus who had his own.

Ironic is, Jesus comes to the last point in his efforts to get people saved by God and mad the most profound statement in the whole bible, that in that day ye shall ask me noting but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it you. How many actually have reached that end? How many actually have that same communication with God that Jesus had and walk as He walks, same mind, same God be in you who was in Christ Jesus? Not very many are like Him as He demands of us are they?

Not many hear Him as Jesus described you would in that do they? And in that inability to communicate with God themselves corrupt Jesus intent to be like the Father yourself. Paul was master at diverting people to his beliefs away from Christ to be like the Father and anointed of Him to hear from Him yourself as Jesus did.

How do you know you have reached that end? Compare yourself with the example God sent for us to follow and be like, if there is anything in you that is different from Jesus then you do not follow the way of Jesus at all.
only by throwing out scripture
by claiming the words of prophets and apostles are not from Him,

that apostles and prophets were just
authors of their own opinions
can you come up with your theology.

See bold.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
only by throwing out scripture
by claiming the words of prophets and apostles are not from Him,

that apostles and prophets were just
authors of their own opinions
can you come up with your theology.

See bold.
All you have to do is read what they wrote of their own experiences to see what they believed. We have the very same thing in this forum, everyone here writes about their experiences do they not? DO not you do the same, do not I do the same?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
no. because Paul didn't write all scripture.
And Paul didn’t put anything in scripture. A King who assembled a bunch of men came together and decided what goes into the book of laws and what doesn’t and authorized it by a king that didn’t even believe in God lol. And to top it off said God inspire him. Lol.

People are not looking at the book for what it really is.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member

As the author of 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament, Paul is arguably the most influential apostle in Christianity. Interestingly, Paul never met Jesus when the latter lived on earth. He also has a history of viciously persecuting the followers of Jesus. It was only after an alleged encounter with Jesus during a journey that Paul changed his ways and started proclaiming himself as an apostle of Jesus. Whether or not Paul was speaking the truth is a separate matter and will be addressed in later videos, God willing. But in this video we will examine if it was even possible for there to be a 13th apostle.

According to the gospel account, there were 12 apostles. After Judas killed himself, 2 candidates were shortlisted to be the replacement for Judas. They were Matthias and Barsabbas. Peter prayed and cast lots. The lot fell on Matthias, who then joined the disciples. This account appears in Acts 1:12-26. Note that the number of Apostles was fixed at 12. Peter did not enlist both Matthias and Barsabbas because there was no room for a 13th apostle.

Peter’s criteria for selecting an apostle was that candidates had to have been with them since the time Jesus was baptised.

"Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection” (Acts 1:20-22)

Thus, the criteria that an apostle candidate had to meet was that he should have been with the apostles from the time of the baptism of Jesus until the time of Jesus' ascension. Peter was simply following what he heard from Jesus. In John 15, Jesus said the following:

He said to them: “You also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning” (John 15:27)

Furthermore, Jesus said there are only 12 apostles.

“Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28)

The book of Revelation also says there are only 12 apostles.

“And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God… The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:10, 14)

As we have seen, twelve thrones, twelve tribes, twelve foundations and twelve apostles. The number of apostles was fixed at 12.

If Paul was indeed a true apostle, then there would have been 13 thrones and 13 foundations with the names of the 13 apostles (that is, the original 11, Matthias and Paul). We have no reason to think Paul was among the 12, as Judas was replaced by Matthias long before Paul’s conversion. If it was even possible for there to be a 13th apostle, Peter would have selected both Matthias and Barsabbas instead of drawing lots to choose one of them.

Since there could have only been 12 apostles, Paul simply could not have been an apostle.

Peter made a decision before he was EMPOWERED to be an apostle. That would not come till Pentecost when they received the power from the Holy Spirit.

Peter was the impulsive disciple. He wanted Jesus to bath him all over when Jesus only wanted to wash the feet of Peter. Peter was the one that Jesus chewed out by accusing Peter of having the same attitude as Satan after Peter had tried to use an emotional appeal to keep Jesus from accepting his destiny of the Cross..Peter also wanted to build a shelter for Moses and Elijah when they appeared along side Jesus in the transfiguration. .. And, it was Peter who asked to walk on the water like Jesus, only to fail and need to be pulled out by the Lord. Peter by nature was impulsive, and seemed to lack patience when needed. He was what some may call... An "impulsive dummy" at times.

Peter while yet without the Holy Spirit yet to guide him, decided it was good to replace Judas when he wanted to see a replacement. Peter is on record for us all to read about his errors, because many Christians while in the baby stage of growth make silly decisions that they later laugh at. Peter is there to show them its alright to make such errors.. as long as they eventually grow up and mature in God's Word.

No men can vote to have another receive a spiritual gift. Gifts are given only as God determines. 1 Corinthians 12:5-11. No as man wishes!

"All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them (spiritual gifts) to each one,
just as he determines."

Peter began as a dummy. All of us do.

Later on he learned to have wisdom after the Holy Spirit was given to the church, and not to just himself alone.

God picked Paul. Men picked Matthias. Paul was the real apostle.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
no. because Paul didn't write all scripture.
Not all... only about 85% of all the NT. No big deal. Even more if you throw out the works of Luke.

Keep in mind that Luke was Paul's right hand man!

So, what Luke wrote (including Acts) would not be if it were not for Paul being chosen by God.
 

Fred

Well-known member
Peter while yet without the Holy Spirit yet to guide him, decided it was good to replace Judas when he wanted to see a replacement.

 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Jesus was a man just as you and I and I am no different from he was in the Father. Evidently you are different from Him for He sent Jesus to show you what it is to be in Him as Jesus was in Him. See Jesus prayer to his God for you to be in John 17. And dont be ignorant and tell me Jesus prayed to himself for you.

If Jesus prayer to his God didn't work for you then you have your answer about who you are of with a religious doctrine instead of God answering Jesus prayer for you that you to be like Him as Jesus was like Him, and you openly deny his prayer for you.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
I am not the proper recipient of prayer.

The Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.

Big diffeence.
Ok, I understand' Jesus didn't pray to his God for you, but he did me. And guess what, God answered his prayer for me that I be like Him.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member

As the author of 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament, Paul is arguably the most influential apostle in Christianity.

And Matthias didn't write any.
And he is never mentioned anywhere in Scripture after Acts 1 (or anywhere in history, AFAIK).


Interestingly, Paul never met Jesus when the latter lived on earth.

Where is that taught in Scripture?
You really think Paul didn't know he was preaching against?

He also has a history of viciously persecuting the followers of Jesus. It was only after an alleged encounter with Jesus during a journey that Paul changed his ways and started proclaiming himself as an apostle of Jesus.

"Alleged"?

Whether or not Paul was speaking the truth is a separate matter and will be addressed in later videos, God willing. But in this video we will examine if it was even possible for there to be a 13th apostle.

He's not the 13th.
He's the 12th.

According to the gospel account, there were 12 apostles. After Judas killed himself, 2 candidates were shortlisted to be the replacement for Judas. They were Matthias and Barsabbas. Peter prayed and cast lots. The lot fell on Matthias, who then joined the disciples. This account appears in Acts 1:12-26.

And then Matthias fell off the face of the earth, never to be seen again.

As we have seen, twelve thrones, twelve tribes, twelve foundations and twelve apostles. The number of apostles was fixed at 12.

That's not the issue.

If Paul was indeed a true apostle, then there would have been 13 thrones and 13 foundations with the names of the 13 apostles

Only if you count Matthias.

(that is, the original 11, Matthias and Paul). We have no reason to think Paul was among the 12,

We have no reason to think Matthias was among the Twelve.

as Judas was replaced by Matthias long before Paul’s conversion.

You are free to believe that if you wish.

I know one thing... Spending your time reading and exegeting all of Matthias' epistles will still leave you lots of time to play video games.

Since there could have only been 12 apostles, Paul simply could not have been an apostle.

Since there could have only been 12 apostles, Matthias simply could not have been an apostle. :)
 

sk0rpi0n

Active member
We have no reason to think Matthias was among the Twelve.

Acts 1:24-26 tells us Matthias replaced Judas and was added to the eleven apostles, thus making him among the 12.

Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:24-26)

Matthias was selected on the basis of the criteria mentioned in Acts 1:20-22.

“For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it’, and, ‘May another take his place of leadership.’ Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection” (Acts 1:20-22)

Since Paul was not with them "the whole time" Jesus was living with them, i.e., from his baptism to the time he was taken up, Paul did not meet the criteria to even qualify as a candidate for apostleship.

Paul proclaimed himself an apostle much, much later. So that makes him a 13th apostle. Unfortunately for Paul, there was room only for 12 apostles. See Matthew 19:28 and Revelation 21:10, 14.
 

sk0rpi0n

Active member
Peter made a decision before he was EMPOWERED to be an apostle. That would not come till Pentecost when they received the power from the Holy Spirit.

According to Matthew 16:18-19, Peter was given the power to make big decisions.

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:18-19)

Secondly, the stipulation that Peter was supposed to make a decision about Judas' replacement only after receiving the Holy Spirit is not based on the Bible.

But even then, according to John's account, the resurrected Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on to the disciples.

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit..”(John 20:21-22)

Note that was before the selection of Matthias. So Peter already had the Holy Spirit before he selected Matthias.
 
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