Just because Paul proclaimed himself as an apostle doesn't mean he belonged to the 12. He never claimed to be one of the 12 as the 13th member. And just because he is not one of the 12, doesn't mean he is lesser of a servant of God. He is equal to the 12 in terms of authority. The 12 were chosen specifically for the 12 tribes of Israel and were Jews. Paul was a Roman citizen and was chosen for the gentiles.
Was Paul the Thirteenth Apostle of Jesus?
- Thread starter sk0rpi0n
- Start date
GeneZ
Well-known member
Future tense, sir. Not at that present time. Nor, any time before Pentecost.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
That had to do with the Jewish tradition of Hallachah. Rabbis were given authority to judge situations that were not directly covered in the Law. That is why Jesus spoke of those who sit on the seat of Moses in Matthew 23:1.
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat."
Those men were given the authority to bind and loosen in regards to regulating the communal life of the Jews. Jesus was giving Peter and the apostles this same authority for the communal life of the future church.
“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you."
Matthew 23:2-3a
That kind of authority Jesus was delegating to the apostles for the future church.
In the past God spoke through the prophets. In these last days he has spoken in his son, who is seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Hebrews 1)
Therefore we can approach the throne of grace with confidence. (Hebrews 4)
What do you need Paul for?
Only one thing is needful. (Luke 10)
Well actually they do not know that he is not God and should be praying to the One true God that Jesus prayed to.
A true christian is Christ like, anointed of God not different from the anointing Jesus had of the Father. So did Adam, Abraham, Moses, 120, all of these were a type of Christ, Gods anointed. That is who Christ is one who is anointed of God and either you are of Christ and Gods anointed or you are not.
Either He is in you and you Iin Him are one as Jesus was one in Him in John 17 or you are of Christ and not like Him. Just ask nearly anyone who says they follow the way of Christ if they are sinners or not and in that you will get your answer. See 1 John 3:8-9. It tells clearly who one is of.
If one is not like the Father of it and say they follow the way of Christ dont have a clue who Christ is nor the one who does the anointing.
For if they say they are of Christ and yet the sinner then that makes the one they say they are of a sinner doesn't it?
And just as with Jesus no man knows God at all least He comes to you and opens up who He is and His heaven to you just as He did in these and especially Jesus in Matt 3:16.
Religious minds who has made a man a god ignore the fact that God had to come to that man Jesus Himself for Jesus to even know who God is. You can read it in Matt 3:16. But then most dont believe Matt 3:16 for they serve a different god from the One who did reveal Himself to Jesus.
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If you take out everything man put in a bible and only quote that what Jesus said of himself and his God and you should be like Him as he was like Him, then you would have a true and honest way top the Father yourself instead of following all of these second hand information written down from their own beliefs that is edited over and over through mans writings and understandings. Most of it isn't what Jesus taught at all, especially Paul who made his own rules for his god.
Actually God always has spoken directly to man. Those who need a prophet are seeking the wrong one for information.
Jesus was very clear that in that day ye shall ask me noting but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it you. Most hire a prophet to stand in a pulpit and pay him to hear god for them dont they. They can sit in a pew and say amen instead of actually hearing from God themselves.
7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As on the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers put Me to the test,
And saw My works for forty years."
19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. (Hebrews 3)
Theo1689
Well-known member
I'm VERY familiar with Acts 1, thank-you-very-much.
Thank you for insultingly assuming I'm ignorant of Scripture.
Yeah, I'm STILL waiting for you to provide evidence for this bogus claim.
You have provided no evidence for this bogus claim.
No, God set him apart.
Only if you make the mistake of counting Matthias.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Then what do you need to read Luke 10 for?
If Paul were to be rejected? You also need to reject his close companion, Luke.
And, add to that. Luke was not one of the original 12, nor an apostle. '
You need to throw away the Book of Acts while you're at it. Written by "Luke."
And, you would need to tell Peter to sober up. For look at what Peter wrote about Paul!
Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also
wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters,
speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own
destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16
Not very complimentary to those who reject Paul. Was it?
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
"which ignorant and unstable people distort,
as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Get in line behind the Catholics..... The line of the Deniers.
e v e 21
Well-known member
in rev we learn that at end times God gives dreams and visions to His souls and that He has witnesses.
That is good enough for me. Paul is a soul of Him, just as some are today. Just as many saints who died.
And God has time for each soul, He is God. All of His souls are His family, the hebrew house. So I don't reject Paul..
All the sons will rule with Christ.
Actually Gods sons do rule with Christ, for Christ is our disposition, anointed of God, Christ in me is Gods anointing in me, He is supposed to be in you as well that you may rule with Him in His ways for mankind to be like Him.
You dont know what it is to be of Christ and Gods anointed as Jesus was anointed of God do you?
sk0rpi0n
Active member
If that were true, then you should know that Matthias replaced Judas, thus becoming the 12th apostle.
For anyone reading this thread:
Paul was not even qualified to join the original 11 because he did not meet the criteria set in Acts 1:20-22.
Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection” (Acts 1:20-22)
As you can see in the bolded and underlined parts, Peter said it was NECESSARY to choose someone who was with them the whole time Jesus lived among them. Paul wasn't one of them and so he could not have joined them.
He merely claimed to be an apostle but his apostleship was not recognized by the original 11 apostles.
sk0rpi0n
Active member
Nowhere in the gospels do we read that Peter had to wait until Pentecost to be able to decide on a replacement for Judas. It's just an arbitrary stipulation some Christians have made up to get around the problem of Matthias being selected officially by Peter, the rock of the church.
If, as you say, the Holy Spirit was required for Peter to select a replacement, then Peter fulfills that condition as he received the Holy Spirit after Jesus resurrection and BEFORE selecting Matthias. See John 20:21-22.
Matthew 23:1 is about something else entirely different and different set of people. It has no bearing on Peter being given the keys of the kingdom of heaven and the authority to "bind things" on earth.
But if you're implying that Peter was like a Rabbi, then fine. He still had the authority as a "Rabbi" to appoint Matthias as a replacement for Judas.
Theo1689
Well-known member
You seem to have difficulty understanding.
I know that the apostles BELIEVED that Matthias replaced Judas.
They were wrong.
Please correct me.
Please quote from the epistles of Matthias.
Please show the historical ministry of Matthias.
You STILL haven't demonstrated that Paul was not qualified.
Please quote where the 11 denied Paul's apostleship.
You are making a fallacious argument from silence.
sk0rpi0n
Active member
Jesus tasked the original apostles to preach to the gentiles.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you (Matthew 18:19-20)
Peter himself said he was supposed to preach the gospel.
“After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: ‘Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe'” (Acts 15:7)
It was the apostles led by Peter, not Paul, who were to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. Paul merely appointed himself as an apostle to the gentiles but his apostleship wasn't recognized by the official apostles.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Was Peter a new creation in Christ at that time? No. He was not.
Not until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given did Peter become a new creation in Christ. Peter was simply being his usual impulsive self.
Peter never says.... "God told me we are to vote." That would have changed things.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Nowhere in the Bible do we see God delegating to men to decide who receives what spiritual gift.
"You search the scriptures.....it is these that testify about me....."
Witnesses.
I agree with what Paul wrote about judging in Romans 2.
How bout you?