Bob Dobbalina
Active member
How is it that a Moabite is in the lineage of Yeshua when there was a curse on such unions at the time?
Contrary to popular opinion....and errant Biblical teaching she wasn't of the Nation of Moab but was born and raised an Israelite on the Plains of Moab. Thus...she is referred to as a Moabite woman the same way a woman of French descent, living in Texas...... is called a Texan.How is it that a Moabite is in the lineage of Yeshua when there was a curse on such unions at the time?
That certainly makes more sense than the popular interpretation. Is this thesis of yours a matter of improved linguistic studies or has this understanding just been suppressed for all these years? It was only recently that I began to question the popular belief, which doesn't make sense once you actually study the scriptures. Thanks Hawkeye.Contrary to popular opinion....and errant Biblical teaching she wasn't of the Nation of Moab but was born and raised an Israelite on the Plains of Moab. Thus...she is referred to as a Moabite woman the same way a woman of French descent, living in Texas...... is called a Texan.
If Ruth lived on the Plains of Moab during this time (Famine in Israel) [Ruth 1:1] she was probably a woman of Reuben, Gad [Numbers 32:15] or Mannasseh [Joshua 22:1-4]. The point is......Yahweh had placed a curse upon Moab and all its inhabitants and it was still in effect 1000 years later [Ezra:9:1-2][Nehemiah 13:23][I Kings 11:1-2][Deuteronomy23:3].Deut 23:3 “No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of them may enter the assembly of the Lord forever, 4 because they did not meet you with bread and with water on the way, when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you. 5 But the Lord your God would not listen to Balaam; instead the Lord your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the Lord your God loved you. 6 You shall not seek their peace or their prosperity all your days forever.
I think the lesson is that "Ruth the Moabite" stopped being a "Moabite" and became an "Israelite". It isn't about genetics, but rather who you worship. Those who worship the Moabite God can never enter the assembly of the Lord.
Ruth was born an Israelite....not a Moabite.
It's always enlightening when you read a relatively new "Literal Translation" that does not have typical Roman Catholic or Protestant bias built into it....like the King James or later biased translations like the New International Version which you are quoting. Let's look at "Young's Literal Translation" which I believe is among the best. Straight Hebrew/Greek literal with no bias.That would certainly remove alot of the force of Ruth's determination in the opening chapter:
14 At this they wept aloud again. Then Orpah kissed her mother-in-law goodbye, but Ruth clung to her.15 “Look,” said Naomi, “your sister-in-law is going back to her people and her gods. Go back with her.”16 But Ruth replied, “Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God.
[Ruth 1:14-16] And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother in law; but Ruth clave unto her. And she said, Behold, thy sister in law is gone back unto her people, and unto her gods: return thou after thy sister in law. And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:
Do you see the Italics? This means those words are not in the original Hebrew. Let's look at that passage without those words to distract...Italics or not.
[Ruth 1:16] And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people my people, and thy God my God:
Thy people.....my people. Obviously... if she were from Manasseh, Rueben or Gad her people also worshiped
Yahweh....the Great God of the Universe....and not Chemosh...the god of Moab. "Thy people my people" is what the various tribes of Israel considered one another and thy God my God follows logically.
Well....as pointed out the Hebrew does not say what your above passage says it says. It simply affirms that Ruth's people are Naomi's people and their God is the same. Words have been added to scripture to alter this fact....and that is a fact because of the Italics.Ruth made a choice and the competing choices are shown in verses 15 and 16. It doesn't indicate that Ruth's choice was easy, or that she was choosing to remain with her people:
15 . . . “her people and her gods." "Go back with her.”
16 . . . "Your people will be my people and your God my God." "Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay"
Here is how "The Plains of Moab" became part of the nation of Israel:[Ruth 1:1]1And it cometh to pass, in the days of the judging of the judges (elohiym), that there is a famine in the land, and there goeth a man from Beth-Lehem-Judah to sojourn in the fields of Moab (sadeh), he, and his wife, and his two sons.
Both you and Hawkeye put forth ideas/interpretations of scripture that avoid the New Age-y mysticism that pervades so much of theological debate, which I greatly appreciate. You both demonstrate that one needn't leave logic and reason at the church door- kudos.Ruth made a choice and the competing choices are shown in verses 15 and 16. It doesn't indicate that Ruth's choice was easy, or that she was choosing to remain with her people:
15 . . . “her people and her gods." "Go back with her.”
16 . . . "Your people will be my people and your God my God." "Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay"
Could Moabite men have converted? The prohibition, as I understand it, was against intermarriage. I hadn't considered conversion; it is Ruth's marriage that brings into question her ethnicity.I'd just like to throw in here for whatever it's worth...according Judaism the restriction on Moabites becoming Israelites did not apply to women. A Moabite woman could have converted to Judaism.
Also, during those days, according to Jewish law, children followed the father, not the mother.
All that said, I personally think Ruth was most likely an ethnically Jewish woman of Moab.
That is rubbish, she was a Moabite. A Moabite is a descendant of Moab just as an Israelite is a descendant of Israel. France and Texas are land mass and don't have descendants. People have descendants.Contrary to popular opinion....and errant Biblical teaching she wasn't of the Nation of Moab but was born and raised an Israelite on the Plains of Moab. Thus...she is referred to as a Moabite woman the same way a woman of French descent, living in Texas...... is called a Texan.
This seems to be the most popular opinion:Could Moabite men have converted? The prohibition, as I understand it, was against intermarriage. I hadn't considered conversion; it is Ruth's marriage that brings into question her ethnicity.
How do you suppose that makes any sense since Jews are the the descendants of Israel and Moabites are the descendants of Moab?I'd just like to throw in here for whatever it's worth...according Judaism the restriction on Moabites becoming Israelites did not apply to women. A Moabite woman could have converted to Judaism.
Also, during those days, according to Jewish law, children followed the father, not the mother.
All that said, I personally think Ruth was most likely an ethnically Jewish woman of Moab.
I didn't say that I agreed with what the Jewish Rabbis teach on this subject, I was just pointing it out.How do you suppose that makes any sense since Jews are the the descendants of Israel and Moabites are the descendants of Moab?
So YHWH's prohibition against intermarriage is of no consequence? If so, how did you come to that conclusion?That is rubbish, she was a Moabite. A Moabite is a descendant of Moab just as an Israelite is a descendant of Israel. France and Texas are land mass and don't have descendants. People have descendants.
Do you care to address Hawkeye's thesis at all or you just dismiss it completely because...why?How do you suppose that makes any sense since Jews are the the descendants of Israel and Moabites are the descendants of Moab?