Was Ruth an Israelite?
- Thread starter Bob Dobbalina
- Start date
Hawkeye
Active member
[Ruth 1:15-17] And she said, Behold, thy sister in law is gone back unto her people, and unto her gods: return thou after thy sister in law. And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God: Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: the LORD do so to me, and more also, if ought but death part thee and me.
Strong's definitions:
H430
H3068
We've already pointed out that Moab only had one god, Chemosh and the Hebrew is in the plural in verse 15 ...so it is obviously speaking of humans....judges, magistrates, mayors, officials, etc.
Whereas in verse 17 Ruth uses the word Yahweh (Jehova).
So... in the most famous verse in the Book of Ruth she uses the word for judges for the local eloyim but uses the word for the Eternal Great God of the Universe when referring to to the Lord.
Who ever wrote the Book of Ruth (most say Samuel) would not have her recorded as using this word, Yahweh if she was not an Israelite by birth.
[Exodus 6:3] And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Strong's definitions:
H430
'elohiym el-o-heem' | plural of ''elowahh' (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. |
H3068
Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' | from 'hayah' (1961); (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 'Yahh' |
We've already pointed out that Moab only had one god, Chemosh and the Hebrew is in the plural in verse 15 ...so it is obviously speaking of humans....judges, magistrates, mayors, officials, etc.
Whereas in verse 17 Ruth uses the word Yahweh (Jehova).
So... in the most famous verse in the Book of Ruth she uses the word for judges for the local eloyim but uses the word for the Eternal Great God of the Universe when referring to to the Lord.
Who ever wrote the Book of Ruth (most say Samuel) would not have her recorded as using this word, Yahweh if she was not an Israelite by birth.
[Exodus 6:3] And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Nowhere does the scripture say Ruth was born and raised an Israelite.
But poor on the truth
That is assumptions and guesswork...you have not provided proof of anything that you are claiming.
That is not a fact you simply made a claim...The fact is that Ruth said she was a foreigner...deal with it...
In your estimation where did her sister-in-law go? You seem to be suggesting that the reference is to human judges in which case vs 16 shows the daughter in law is referring to both their god in the same way. That would make Naiomi's God a regular judge also..
Since Ruth is saying in vs 16 their gods are judges in vs 17 Jehovah is simply a judge to her...
you missed the part where she is referring to Naioni's god as Elohim
That is an assumption at best, the context shows she refers to Naiomi's god as Elohim the same word used for god in Genesis...That proves Ruth's story is being told by a third person who refers to Naiomi's God as Jehovah. But in any case it would be impossible for the wife if an Israelite to not know the God of Israel is Jehovah
That has no bearing on Ruth's lineage...All it says is that the Israelites knew the name of god and their Moabitess wives did also..
Hawkeye
Active member
The Moabites were the children of Lot [Genesis 19:30-38] and originally inhabited the area of the eastern shores of the Dead Sea from the River Jabbock in the north to the southern end of the Dead Sea which was the border with Edom.
When the Amorites took the Plains of Moab from Moab's King they only took land as far south as the River Arnon. Consequently....much land was left for the Kingdom of Moab to continue in existence.
[Numbers 21:26] For Heshbon was the city of Sihon the king of the Amorites, who had fought against the former king of Moab, and taken all his land out of his hand, even unto Arnon.
But.....all the Moabites who had been living in that land now ruled by Sihon, the Amorite....perished when Israel took it;
[Deuteronomy 2:32-34] Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
All Moabites that had been living on what is referred to the Plains of Moab were killed by the Israelites. But......Israel still called it the Land of Moab as did Sihon (the previous conqueror), the Amorite King.
Moses then gave this Land of Moab to three tribes of Israel that had asked for it:
[Numbers 32:1-5] Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; The children of Gad and the children of Reuben came and spake unto Moses, and to Eleazar the priest, and unto the princes of the congregation, saying, Ataroth, and Dibon, and Jazer, and Nimrah, and Heshbon, and Elealeh, and Shebam, and Nebo, and Beon, Even the country which the LORD smote before the congregation of Israel, is a land for cattle, and thy servants have cattle: Wherefore, said they, if we have found grace in thy sight, let this land be given unto thy servants for a possession, and bring us not over Jordan.
[Numbers 32:33] And Moses gave unto them, even to the children of Gad, and to the children of Reuben, and unto half the tribe of Manasseh the son of Joseph, the kingdom of Sihon king of the Amorites, and the kingdom of Og king of Bashan, the land, with the cities thereof in the coasts, even the cities of the country round about.
Here is Biblical evidence that the area of The Land of Moab north of the Arnon River was conquered, subdued and settled by Israel and was held as Israeli Territory until the captivity to Assyria about 700 years later.
Here is where the young Israelite woman called Ruth met (and married into) the family of Naomi.
[Deuteronomy 23:3-4] An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever: Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.
If Elimelech and Naomi had chosen to ignore this pronouncement on their own....traveling to the heathen Kingdom of Moab and allowing their sons to marry Moabite women..... Yahweh would not have allowed David (a descendant from Ruth and Boaz) to become King of Israel. The act itself would make a mockery of Yahweh's word and consider His whole Law to be nonsense.
Don't forget...Yahweh slew the son's of Judah [Genesis 38:1-11] to prevent the royal line of Israel from descending from a Canaanite woman. Why would He allow the same thing to happen again?
Before the Exodus:
After the Exodus:
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
You can cite all the scriptures you want but the posters here know better because the traditions of men are more important than what scripture actually says. I commend you for your perseverance in the face of idiocy.
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
It has been posted that
“Nowhere does the scripture say that Ruth was born an Israelite.”
Likewise, nowhere do the scriptures say that she wasn’t.
As Christians, we are called upon not just to read but to study the scriptures. One reason people struggle with their Christian walk is because their allegiance is to their pastor and his traditions rather than YHWH.
If you feel that you fully understand God, he ain’t God.
“Nowhere does the scripture say that Ruth was born an Israelite.”
Likewise, nowhere do the scriptures say that she wasn’t.
As Christians, we are called upon not just to read but to study the scriptures. One reason people struggle with their Christian walk is because their allegiance is to their pastor and his traditions rather than YHWH.
If you feel that you fully understand God, he ain’t God.
this is not scripture...Here is where the young Israelite woman called Ruth met (and married into) the family of Naomi...scripture calls Ruth a Moabitess. This is what you are commending. Why should anyone be trying to twist the scripture to support something it does not say?
yes I posted that...can you show where the scripture identifies Ruth as an Israelite?
The scripture says she was a Moabitess... one cannot be a Mosbitess and an Israelite at the same time. Why wasn't Moses' wife called an Israelite?
Numbers 12:1
And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
So why are you supporting someone who is making false claims against the scripture...The scripture calls Ruth a Moabitess, not an Israelite
This has nothing to do with feelings...Does the scripture call Ruth a Moabitess or not?
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
I’m called a New Yorker, despite having been born in Arkansas.
Those who champion the traditions of men are often the ones responsible for propagating those traditions; i.e., hell hath no fury like a “pastor” proven wrong.
Those who champion the traditions of men are often the ones responsible for propagating those traditions; i.e., hell hath no fury like a “pastor” proven wrong.
Hawkeye
Active member
Numbers 21:20] And from Bamoth in the valley, that is in the country of Moab, to the top of Pisgah, which looketh toward Jeshimon.
The Israelites are about to send messengers to Sihon, King of the Amorites requesting passage through his country on their way to Jordan (verses 21-22).
He refuses (verse 23).....and Israel takes possession of the country of Moab from Sihon (verses 24-26). Israel now owns the country of Moab!
But a few day earlier......................
[Numbers 21:10-13] And the children of Israel set forward, and pitched in Oboth. And they journeyed from Oboth, and pitched at Ijeabarim, in the wilderness which is before Moab, toward the sunrising. From thence they removed, and pitched in the valley of Zared. From thence they removed, and pitched on the other side of Arnon, which is in the wilderness that cometh out of the coasts of the Amorites: for Arnon is the border of Moab, between Moab and the Amorites.
The Nation of Moab is still a functioning political entity....but Israel now owns the country of Moab.
This is what confuses people into believe Ruth was a Moabitess woman. Sure she was.........but not racially. She was a geographic Moabitess woman from the country of Moab which was north of the Arnon river in the land previously owned by the Amorites.
KJV [Ruth 1:1] Now it came to pass in the days when the judges ruled, that there was a famine in the land. And a certain man of Bethlehemjudah went to sojourn in the country of Moab, he, and his wife, and his two sons.
New Internation Version [Ruth 1:1] In the days when the judges ruled, a there was a famine in the land. So a man from Bethlehem in Judah, together with his wife and two sons, went to live for a while in the country of Moab.
English Standard Version [Ruth 1:1] In the days when the judges ruled there was a famine in the land, and a man of Bethlehem in Judah went to sojourn in the country of Moab, he and his wife and his two sons.
Wycliffe Bible [Ruth 1:1] In the days of one judge, when judges were sovereigns in Israel, hunger was made in the land; and a man of Bethlehem of Judah went to be a pilgrim in the country of Moab, with his wife and [his] two free sons.
Young's Literal Translation [Ruth 1:1] And it cometh to pass, in the days of the judging of the judges, that there is a famine in the land, and there goeth a man from Beth-Lehem-Judah to sojourn in the fields of Moab, he, and his wife, and his two sons.
Now....we are told in [Numbers 21:20] that the Israelites are in the country of Moab and are about to take it from King Sihon of the Amorites who owns it. If you don't believe the Israelites are about ready to conquer and take the country of Moab for their own possession.....then you don't believe the written word of Yahweh.
Where did Naomi and family go??????
To the country of Moab. Actually Young's gets it the best when he says......Fields of Moab. Good farming and grazing land for cattle. Good rural land to escape famine in a nearby territory. Good land for raising children who eventually grow up and marry other Israelites who settled in the country of Moab.
Can anyone say "Ruth"?
For anyone to completely ignore [Deuteronomy 23] where Yahweh puts a curse on the intermarrying of racial Moabites with Israel and not understand that this did not include Ruth is completely ignoring Biblical fact and common sense.
Hawkeye
Active member
[Deuteronomy 1:5] On this side Jordan, in the land of Moab, began Moses to declare this law, saying,
But wait? Weren't we told that Yahweh had instructed Moses not to go into Moab.....or disturb them in any way [Deuteronomy 2:9-19].
He evidently had changed His mind.....like He did when He said Boaz could marry a racial Moabitess woman.......(satire).
[Judges 11:17-18] Then Israel sent messengers unto the king of Edom, saying, Let me, I pray thee, pass through thy land: but the king of Edom would not hearken thereto. And in like manner they sent unto the king of Moab: but he would not consent: and Israel abode in Kadesh. Then they went along through the wilderness, and compassed the land of Edom, and the land of Moab, and came by the east side of the land of Moab, and pitched on the other side of Arnon, but came not within the border of Moab: for Arnon was the border of Moab.
Well now................here is what some non students of scripture call a contradiction. Was....or was Moses not inside the borders of Moab?????
Moses was not inside the political border of the Nation of Moab. Moses was speaking from the Plains of Moab....near Jericho [Numbers 36:13]. This was territory now owned by Israel by right of conquest [Number 21:21-26].
Two different Moabs.....one where the racial Moabites lived and the other called the Land of Moad (The Plains of Moab) that Israel had conquered....and where Ruth would be born and raised about 150/200 years later.
Hawkeye
Active member
I knew a person long ago who insisted that Yahweh changed His mind about the curse in [Deuteronomy 23] and wanted to be inclusive of all folks.......thereby allowing Ruth (a racial Moabitess in his view) to marry Boaz. This would allow a "Hallmark Card" approach to the bloodline of Our Savior and make everyone happy. Folks would no longer march in the streets demanding "Social Justice" for the Moabites!
Well....not only could this person not show me the pertinent passage where that was stated......but could not answer the question regarding the division of David's Kingdom under Solomon [I Kings, chapters 11&12] because he cohabited with Moabites (and others) 400 years later. He also would not discuss the criticism offered by Nehemiah [Nehemiah 13:23-27] over this Moabite question taking place almost 700 years after that.
When you know that Ruth was an Israelite...... dwelling on the "Plains of Moab"....... owned by Israel for centuries....then these silly arguments just dissipate and the truth of scripture comes forth.
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
It is amazing how much people will defer to traditions when asked to choose between man-made ideas and scriptural coherence. Their faith is in the linguistic skills of long-dead scholars and scribes rather than scripture. As stated previously, I truly believe you’re speaking to the lurkers because those who post here already know everything.
Hawkeye
Active member
You must be right because only a few have bothered to post. I'm not sure why that is.....
They're either disinterested or have no counter biblical argument. The only counter arguments that have been offered have easily been disproved by literal scripture.
So...........it must be lack of interest in the subject.
Hawkeye
Active member
Here are a few reasons why folks should question their pastors on this subject:
Young's Literal: beyond the Jordan, in the land of Moab, hath Moses begun to explain this law, saying:
Implying, of course.....that it's right across the river. That would not be the nation of Moab!
*************************************************************************************************************************
Young's Literal: These [are] the words of the covenant which Jehovah hath commanded Moses to make with the sons of Israel in the land of Moab, apart from the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.
Well....we know he did not go into Moab itself (as we read in Judges) so he must be giving the second covenant to the Israelites on the Plains of Moab .
************************************************************************************************************************
Young's Literal: ‘Go up unto this mount Abarim, mount Nebo, which [is] in the land of Moab, which [is] on the front of Jericho, and see the land of Canaan which I am giving to the sons of Israel for a possession;
On the front of Jericho????? For sure this is not heathen Moab....but Territory won by Israel from Sihon.
*************************************************************************************************************************
Deu 34:5 - So Moses H4872 the servant H5650 of the LORD H3068 died H4191 there in the land H776 of Moab, H4124 according to the word H6310 of the LORD. H3068
Deu 34:6 - And he buried H6912 him in a valley H1516 in the land H776 of Moab, H4124 over against H4136 Bethpeor: H1047 but no man H376 knoweth H3045 of his sepulchre H6900 unto this day. H3117
Young's Literal: And Moses, servant of the Lord, dieth there, in the land of Moab, according to the command of Jehovah; 6and He burieth him in a valley in the land of Moab, over-against Beth-Peor, and no man hath known his burying place unto this day.
I've always said this was the clincher. Yahweh would not forbid the Israelites from going into Moab......and then bury Moses on that same cursed soil! He was buried in Israeli soil! The same ground that nourished the young Israelite woman, Ruth.
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
I can empathize with those who’ve spent their whole lives believing error; it’s very hard to dislodge all the bull durham that calcifies around the traditions of men, especially if you’ve spent any part of your life propagating it.
CARM is heavily populated with “teachers” who’ve spent their whole lives “teaching” what you’ve shown scripturally to be erroneous.
Anyway, I don’t believe it’s lack of interest; it’s lack of ability to meaningfully refute the thesis you’ve proffered here. I pray for further understanding and an outpouring of the wisdom of YHWH upon us all. Thankfully, this question is not one of salvific import, i.e.; no one is going to be eternally tormented for questioning the conventional understanding of Ruth and her nationality.
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
Who amongst you believes that YHWH buried Moses in the land that He forbade Israelites from entering?
Hawkeye
Active member
What folks just can't seem to get their head around is that you can be a Moabitess and an Israelite as well....from birth. This is the same as being an Israelite and a Galilean from birth:
[Mark 14:70] And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto.
The same way I can be called a German....and an American as well. My wife....a native American Chippewa is also referred to a Californian....and an American. She was born in Indiana. Guess what they called her then? A Chippewa, Indi-anan Hoosier!
Ruth was born a few hundred years after Moses took possession of the Land of Moab to one of three tribes that he gave that land to (east of Jordan). Women born and raised in the Land of Moab could certainly be referred to as Moabitess.. They could also be called Gadites, Rebenites or Mannasseites....depending on where in the Land of Moab they dwelt. If they moved across the river to Galilee.....guess what they could be called then?
Put yourself in Naomi's shoes:
"Hey Elimelech....foods getting scarce here in Judah. Why don't we go live in that Heathen Kingdom across the dead sea for a few years. Oh....I know we'll have to pass through the "Fields of Moab" where there always seems to be plenty of food. You know....great grazing land for cattle and fertile fields surrounded by three rivers always flowing with fresh water. Good crops always as well!"
"You know....I hear those young Moabite women are really good lookers and I'm sure Mahlon and Kilion will really enjoy chasing after them.....maybe even marrying one of them."
"What's that about Moses? Oh......Deuteronomy 23........."
"Well you know 'ol Moses....always jokin' around. Remember the burning bush thing.......and the Red Sea parting? Yeah....funny, huh?
"Maybe we can stop in the "Fields of Moab" on the way back home for a "Big Mac"....or something."