Your feeling is not scripture so it does not mean squat...as I explained to Rachel it does not matter because women do not carry the gene to make a manchild the X chromosome is only present in men. this Ruth argument does not change anything concerning the messiah.Here is a map showing the location of the three tribes that received possession of the "Plains of Moab" from Moses [Numbers 32:1-5][Joshua 13:8-13].
After the Israelites fought King Sihon there were no more people left alive on the "Plains of Moab".....except the Israelites: [Deuteronomy 2:26-37]
Specially note verse 34. Note that the Kingdom of Moab is south of the Arnon River and is no where near the "Plains".....or as verse #1 in Ruth says:
And it cometh to pass, in the days of the judging of the judges, that there is a famine in the land, and there goeth a man from Beth-Lehem-Judah to sojourn in the fields of Moab, he, and his wife, and his two sons.
The Plains begin at the northern tip of the Dead Sea as indicated on this map...................
.......and run up the Jordan River to the Sea Of Galilee.
It's my feeling that Ruth probably came from the tribe of Manasseh. This would tie in the Messianic genealogy to both Joseph and Judah. The scepter promise and the blessings from Jacob. [Genesis, Chapters 48 and 49]
Thanks again for starting this thread.
Was Ruth an Israelite?
- Thread starter Bob Dobbalina
- Start date
Rachel Redux
Active member
You lost all credibility due to your ignorant answers and I lost interest in the exchange.
Hawkeye
Active member
Ditto Kiddo!
Hawkeye
Active member
It's very difficult to converse with folks who seemingly have no basic comprehension skills to speak of. I think you should also (like myself) just wish them well.....and don't engage.....as it's really a waste of your time.
That is nothing more than an opinion...anyone can have those. In other words, Appealing to authority fallacy. Entering into the assembly does not mean marriage. Marriage to whom by who or what?
you cannot make assertions about what Bosz could or could not do as if it is evidence of something...That is just silly. To assume that one could attain the status of a Jew is rubbish Jews are the children of Israel. The lineage is passed on by the males NOT females.... People who would join into the religious practice became proselytes, not Jews.
You are no different from the others who cannot support their nonsense. And it is normal for you to say my answers are ignorant because you cannot understand them.
yes run away when you cannot defend a silly OP
Hawkeye
Active member
What's your feeling about the possibility of Ruth being descended from Manasseh....thereby uniting the Blessings and the Scepter from Jacob?
Hawkeye
Active member
The Prophet, Zephania lived in Jerusalem around 625 B.C.
His father was Cushi whose father was Gedaliah whose father was Amariah whose father was Hiskiah. This is the same as Hezakiah in Hebrew.
I'm not sure if this was King Hezakiah or not....but if it was....Zephania was of royal blood. He wrote his book during the reign of King Josiah and is considered the last of the minor prophets. Then....Judah went into captivity.
KJV: [Zephaniah 2:9] Therefore as I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them.
I wonder what his feelings were about Boaz and his wife? I wonder why Yahweh would consider these people to even be in the bloodline of Yeshua?
Only three men have been listed in scripture as being chosen by Yahweh before they were even born. They are Yeshua Our Savior; John the Baptist.....and Jeremiah the prophet.
[Jeremiah 48:29] We have heard the pride of Moab, (he is exceeding proud) his loftiness, and his arrogancy, and his pride, and the haughtiness of his heart.
[48:42] And Moab shall be destroyed from being a people, because he hath magnified himself against the LORD.
Again....what would Yahweh be thinking to include these folks in the Messianic line?
Jeremiah lived about 627 B.C. and also during the reign of Josiah. This would be 700 years after Ruth lived on the "Plains of Moab".
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Rachel Redux
Active member
I think that's entirely possible. We will probably never know for sure. What we do know is that God commanded that Moabites could not inter-marry with Jews!
Hawkeye
Active member
The main problem that I see in this story being told the way it happened is the assumption in the KJV (and others) that [Ruth 1:1] mentions "Country" of Moab....thereby misleading folks to believe scripture speaks of the "Nation" of Moab.
Let's jump to [Ruth 2:2]: And Ruth the Moabitess said unto Naomi, Let me now go to the field, and glean ears of corn after him in whose sight I shall find grace. And she said unto her, Go, my daughter.
"Field" is the same Hebrew word as "Country" in [Ruth 1:1]. It is "Sadeh" and this is the definition:
Strong's Hebrew: 7704. שָׂדֶה (sadeh)
Ruth 1:1
HEB: יְהוּדָ֗ה לָגוּר֙ בִּשְׂדֵ֣י מוֹאָ֔ב ה֥וּא
NAS: to sojourn in the land of Moab
KJV: to sojourn in the country of Moab,
INT: Judah to sojourn the land of Moab
Young's Literal: to sojourn in the fields of Moab,
Ruth 2:2
HEB: אֵֽלְכָה־ נָּ֤א הַשָּׂדֶה֙ וַאֲלַקֳטָ֣ה בַשִּׁבֳּלִ֔ים
NAS: let me go to the field and glean
KJV: Let me now go to the field, and glean
INT: go Please to the field and glean the ears
Young's Literal: ‘Let me go, I pray thee, into the field, and I gather among the ears
The word "Nation" of Moab would seem to be better used here to agree with this preposterous idea that Ruth was of that National blood. People have been taught this silly idea that Yahweh wants to include a woman of the Nation of Moab.....and then tells us through his various prophets he intends to wipe them out!
Rachel Redux
Active member
It doesn't make sense especially when combined with the other evidence that she was a Jewish woman.
So you just gloss over the word Moabitess in Ruth 2:2..why did you only pick out from the verse what you want? please tell us what the literal translation for Moabitess says. https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4125.htm
You reject context and replace it with your own bias. No Israelite is referred to as being of another nation or tribe. Even if they lived in another country or nation. Your claim is baseless.
Hawkeye
Active member
I remember one time I had been discussing the bad translations in the Book of Ruth with someone who was not convinced and he kept coming back to the point of....."Well, why did scripture call Ruth a Moabitess if she was an Israelite?"
He would not accept the simple fact that folks are sometimes called by......from where they come from. I gave examples of French people in Texas now called "Texans"; American Indian folks in California called "Californians"......but logic did not register with him for some reason. He kept saying that "If she were of an Israelite tribe she would be referred to as that....and not a Moabitess."
Everyone of the Savior's disciples hailed from Galilee....except Judas.
[Mark 14:70] Again he denied it. After a little while, those standing near said to Peter, “Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean.
[Acts 2:7] Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?
Well....according to my friend this should not have been in scripture as all Israelites were called by their tribal names and not from where they came.
Galilean
an inhabitant or native of Galilee.
MOABITESS
mo'-ab-it-es, mo-ab-i'-tes (mo'abhiyah):
A woman, or in plural women, of Moab.
I gave him scripture after scripture showing that the "Fields" of Moab was where Naomi and family traveled.....to avoid the famine in Judah. I offered proof after proof that this area was called Moab because it once was Moab.....but was now in the possession of Israel.... and folks who lived there were sometimes referred to a Moabites....just as the disciples were sometimes referred to as Galileans.
It didn't register at all with him. It's so sad that folks are wrapped up in their traditions.
Hawkeye
Active member
Dear Lady. I apologize for taking so long to answer your post but it seems I just forgot.
[Deuteronomy 23:3] An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:
On the surface this looks like a contradiction. Ten generations...........forever?
I mean.....what is it? Ten generations (about 250 years) or is it forever (eternal)?
Moabite man and Moabite woman are parents to a little girl (1st generation)
Little girl ends up marrying an Armenian and they have a little girl (2nd generation; 1/2 half Moabite)
This little girl ends up marrying a Macedonian and they have a little girl (3rd generation; 1/4 Moabite)
She marries a Gaul and little girl is born (4th generation; 1/8 Moabite)
Next marriage is with a Celt and little girl is (5th generation; 1/16 Moabite)
We're halfway there and after ten generations the brand new baby girl is 1/512th Moabite.
Yahweh says it's now O.K. for her daughter to marry an Israelite and be part of the congregation.
SteveB
Well-known member
I'd say take it up with God. He apparently doesn't have a problem with it. I have to admit I'm still scratching my head over it, but we do see she's a Moabitess, and is the great grandmother of King David, which makes her an ancestor of Jesus.
Ruth 4 :: New King James Version (NKJV)
Ruth 4 - Obed begot Jesse, and Jesse begot David.
www.blueletterbible.org
Deuteronomy 23 :: New King James Version (NKJV)
Deuteronomy 23 - "He who is emasculated by crushing or mutilation shall not enter the assembly of the LORD.
www.blueletterbible.org
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
Tradition is more important than truth.
Cynthia
Active member
Manasseh, Gad and Reuben all settled north of the Arnon River.
The nation of Moab was south of the Arnon River and north of the Zered River (where Edom began south of the Zered), so they did not share territory with Reuben, Gad or Manasseh.
So when the text states that a man left Judah and sojourned in the country of Moab, (Ruth 1.1) that means the region between the Arnon and Zered Rivers, west of the Dead Sea.
The real point is that there was no prohibition of accepting a person who converted to worship the God of Israel, which is verified of Ruth in Ruth 1.16, your God, my God (LXX).
Even though she had converted to worship the true God of Israel, she was referred to multiple times as the Moabite woman who came back with Naomi from the country of Moab (Ruth 2.6) because it was a way to reference her unique status as a woman who converted, and was not born an Israelite. Paul teaches us that it is not the blood line that counts, it is the faith of Abraham.
Tiburon
Well-known member
Where is this curse expounded?
Cynthia
Active member
Excuse me, I meant to say east of the Dead Sea, (not west!)