Water Baptism (Immersion) Saves

[Kade Rystalmane]

1 Peter 3:20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Romans 6:3-7; 16-18
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
...
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Ephesians 5:26
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse [the church] with the washing of water by the word,

Acts 22:16
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

John 3:3,5
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:6,8
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth...8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Eph 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

From the above verses we see that by the time Paul writes to Ephesus only one NT immersion remains. We see that it is water immersion from several of the passages including Ephesians 5:26 (the same letter that says there is only one immersion now). We understand that NT immersion is:

• in water (the element)
• by the Holy Spirit (the authority)
• by the inspired word (the authority)
• into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, into Christ's body, to bring us into contact with Christ's cleansing blood (the effect)
• to remit sins, wash away sins, save us from sins, etc. (the purpose)

In Romans 6, Paul speaks of our immersion into Christ as obeying from the heart the pattern of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection and then being made free from sin. Immersion in the Holy Spirit (as the element) is not a command that can be obeyed. It is something that is purely passive and a choice by God alone. Water immersion, on the other hand, can be obeyed. Thus, Romans 6 must be talking about immersion in water, not in the Holy Spirit as happened to the Apostles and Cornelius.

In Truth and Love.

 

[squirrelyguy]

Eph 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

From the above verses we see that by the time Paul writes to Ephesus only one NT immersion remains. We see that it is water immersion from several of the passages including Ephesians 5:26 (the same letter that says there is only one immersion now). We understand that NT immersion is:

• in water (the element)
• by the Holy Spirit (the authority)
• by the inspired word (the authority)
• into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, into Christ's body, to bring us into contact with Christ's cleansing blood (the effect)
• to remit sins, wash away sins, save us from sins, etc. (the purpose)

In Romans 6, Paul speaks of our immersion into Christ as obeying from the heart the pattern of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection and then being made free from sin. Immersion in the Holy Spirit (as the element) is not a command that can be obeyed. It is something that is purely passive and a choice by God alone. Water immersion, on the other hand, can be obeyed. Thus, Romans 6 must be talking about immersion in water, not in the Holy Spirit as happened to the Apostles and Cornelius.

In Truth and Love.

What if the "one baptism" in Eph. 4:5 isn't about the mode of baptism, but the meaning of baptism?

In Acts 19:1-6 we see that there's the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus Christ. They both involve immersion in water, but the baptism of Jesus Christ was to "fulfill all righteousness", i.e. to receive the Holy Spirit. The baptism of John was for the forgiveness of sins. The disciples at Ephesus had known only the baptism of John when Paul finds them in Acts 19:1...Paul puts his finger on this as the reason why they had not received the Holy Spirit yet. After rebaptizing them in the name of Jesus Christ, he "had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." (19:6)

If you are baptized for the forgiveness of sins, you have only known the baptism of John and thus, per Paul's admonition in Acts 19:1-6, you probably don't have the Holy Spirit. You need to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus Christ to fulfill all righteousness, just as Christ Himself was.

Now, a lot of churches that teach water baptism is connected to the forgiveness of sins will nevertheless say "In the name of Jesus Christ," or "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" over the person being baptized. I believe this makes their baptism functionally the baptism of Jesus Christ, even if they aren't properly instructed on its meaning beforehand.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

What if the "one baptism" in Eph. 4:5 isn't about the mode of baptism, but the meaning of baptism?

If we are talking about the meaning of immersion then we have to discuss what immersion in the Holy Spirit meant vs. what immersion in water meant as they meant two completely different things. Then we have to decide which is the one immersion and let go of the other as its no longer valid today. I see nothing to suggest a dichotomy between mode and meaning here. I think in discussing one, we discuss the other because of this.

In Acts 19:1-6 we see that there's the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus Christ. They both involve immersion in water, but the baptism of Jesus Christ was to "fulfill all righteousness", i.e. to receive the Holy Spirit. The baptism of John was for the forgiveness of sins. The disciples at Ephesus had known only the baptism of John when Paul finds them in Acts 19:1...Paul puts his finger on this as the reason why they had not received the Holy Spirit yet. After rebaptizing them in the name of Jesus Christ, he "had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." (19:6)

I think you are running a couple of contexts together here. The immersion by John was to get Israel to repent and understand the coming Messiah. When John immersed Jesus, it was to fulfill all righteousness, but Jesus was not immersed with the NT immersion. Neither do we see that water immersion is directly connected with the receiving of the Holy Spirit in a personal, supernatural manner. In Acts 8, they believed and were immersed in water, but had to wait for Peter and John to lay hands on them before they received the Holy Spirit.

When we get to Acts 19 and we see the same pattern of Acts 8, they were immersed by John's immersion, not the NT immersion into Christ, so they were immersed into Christ and then the Apostle laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. In fact, neither in Acts 8 or in Acts 19 were they immersed in the Holy Spirit. That event was a special event with a specific purpose all three times it happened.

If you are baptized for the forgiveness of sins, you have only known the baptism of John and thus, per Paul's admonition in Acts 19:1-6, you probably don't have the Holy Spirit. You need to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus Christ to fulfill all righteousness, just as Christ Himself was.

I was immersed in the name of Jesus Christ over 30 years ago. I do not have a personal, supernatural indwelling of the Holy Spirit within me. The Father, Son, and Spirit all dwell in me through the Word, but in no other manner.

Furthermore, John's immersion in water for the remission of sins was as a pointer to Christ looking forward. They did not receive remission of sins being immersed by John or according to John. It was the repentance and looking for Christ, the last type of the OT pointing to the NT antitype.

I ask that you deal with all of the passages I presented to show that water immersion is the one remaining NT immersion, the immersion that puts us into Christ and washes away our sins. You have not touched any of them save Eph. 4:5.

Now, a lot of churches that teach water baptism is connected to the forgiveness of sins will nevertheless say "In the name of Jesus Christ," or "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" over the person being baptized. I believe this makes their baptism functionally the baptism of Jesus Christ, even if they aren't properly instructed on its meaning beforehand.

Nowhere does the Bible command us what to say, or to say anything at all before immersing someone. What the person doing the immersion says, who they are even, is completely irrelevant. Immersing someone in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, or in the name of Jesus Christ means to immerse them by their authority (see. Col. 3:17; 1 Cor. 1). You can immerse someone into Christ without saying anything at all and it still put you into the body of the saved.

There is no Holy Spirit immersion today. The reason for it was fulfilled in the 1st Century AD.

In Truth and Love.

 

[water only for JOHN]

1 Peter 3:20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Romans 6:3-7; 16-18
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
...
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Ephesians 5:26
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse [the church] with the washing of water by the word,

Acts 22:16
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

John 3:3,5
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:6,8
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth...8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Eph 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

From the above verses we see that by the time Paul writes to Ephesus only one NT immersion remains. We see that it is water immersion from several of the passages including Ephesians 5:26 (the same letter that says there is only one immersion now). We understand that NT immersion is:

• in water (the element)
• by the Holy Spirit (the authority)
• by the inspired word (the authority)
• into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, into Christ's body, to bring us into contact with Christ's cleansing blood (the effect)
• to remit sins, wash away sins, save us from sins, etc. (the purpose)

In Romans 6, Paul speaks of our immersion into Christ as obeying from the heart the pattern of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection and then being made free from sin. Immersion in the Holy Spirit (as the element) is not a command that can be obeyed. It is something that is purely passive and a choice by God alone. Water immersion, on the other hand, can be obeyed. Thus, Romans 6 must be talking about immersion in water, not in the Holy Spirit as happened to the Apostles and Cornelius.

In Truth and Love.

Most christians today don't understand the true understanding of baptism. The facts are John the Baptist after baptising Jesus water baptism ended as john preached for the one who comes after me will baptised in the Holy Spirit.

Evidence acts 1:1-5
Jesus himself after Matthew 28,:19 says John only baptised with water.

The big question is
why didn't Jesus ever baptize anybody in water?

If it is true John the Baptist after baptising Jesus ,WATER BAPTISM ENDED there would be no need for this discussion.

As it is today water baptism is a stumbling block to much controversy

one will say you should baptize infants

one would say you should immerse
when another would say you should sprinkle.

It's time to put this baptism argument to sleep and believe the truth water baptism ended after John the Baptist baptised Jesus

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

Most christians today don't understand the true understanding of baptism. The facts are John the Baptist after baptising Jesus water baptism ended as john preached for the one who comes after me will baptised in the Holy Spirit.

Evidence acts 1:1-5
Jesus himself after Matthew 28,:19 says John only baptised with water.

The big question is
why didn't Jesus ever baptize anybody in water?

If it is true John the Baptist after baptising Jesus ,WATER BAPTISM ENDED there would be no need for this discussion.

As it is today water baptism is a stumbling block to much controversy

one will say you should baptize infants

one would say you should immerse
when another would say you should sprinkle.

It's time to put this baptism argument to sleep and believe the truth water baptism ended after John the Baptist baptised Jesus

It seems Phillip and the Holy Spirit were confused then (Acts 8:36-39).

 

[water only for JOHN]

It seems Phillip and the Holy Spirit were confused then (Acts 8:36-39).

The Ethiopian eunuch was baptised in the Holy Spirit.

The NIV Bible and other manuscripts removed verse Acts 8:37......WHY ?
Question...

Question...Why did John the Baptist use water to baptise ?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Water Baptism (Immersion) Saves​

Sorry, but FAITH Gifted by God in the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the Cross is what saves, not a quick dip in a tank. Eph 2:8,9

 

[Ignatius]

What if the "one baptism" in Eph. 4:5 isn't about the mode of baptism, but the meaning of baptism?

In Acts 19:1-6 we see that there's the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus Christ. They both involve immersion in water, but the baptism of Jesus Christ was to "fulfill all righteousness", i.e. to receive the Holy Spirit. The baptism of John was for the forgiveness of sins. The disciples at Ephesus had known only the baptism of John when Paul finds them in Acts 19:1...Paul puts his finger on this as the reason why they had not received the Holy Spirit yet. After rebaptizing them in the name of Jesus Christ, he "had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." (19:6)

If you are baptized for the forgiveness of sins, you have only known the baptism of John and thus, per Paul's admonition in Acts 19:1-6, you probably don't have the Holy Spirit. You need to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus Christ to fulfill all righteousness, just as Christ Himself was.

Now, a lot of churches that teach water baptism is connected to the forgiveness of sins will nevertheless say "In the name of Jesus Christ," or "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" over the person being baptized. I believe this makes their baptism functionally the baptism of Jesus Christ, even if they aren't properly instructed on its meaning beforehand.

Your theology is based on a "what if" instead of what scripture explicitly says?

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

The Ethiopian eunuch was baptised in the Holy Spirit.

The NIV Bible and other manuscripts removed verse Acts 8:37......WHY ?

Because they were basing their translations on corrupted manuscripts. Still doesn't address the whole context of 36-39 with the water in it.

Question...

Question...Why did John the Baptist use water to baptise ?

John was a descendant of the line of Aaron and was administering the ritualistic cleansings similar to the water of separation (Numbers 19) that were all types pointing to the NT antitype of water immersion into Christ for the remission of sins.

 

[Zipper]

Baptismal regeneration (by water) is not compatible with salvation by faith alone. The baptism which saves is the baptism of the spirit, which happens at the point of regeneration when the spirit indwells the believer.

John 3 is a common trouble passage, but reading in context you can see that there is a parallelism being employed. To be born of water is to be literally born, and to be born of the spirit is to be spiritually reborn. The water in this context refers to the water of childbirth.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

Baptismal regeneration (by water) is not compatible with salvation by faith alone. The baptism which saves is the baptism of the spirit, which happens at the point of regeneration when the spirit indwells the believer.

John 3 is a common trouble passage, but reading in context you can see that there is a parallelism being employed. To be born of water is to be literally born, and to be born of the spirit is to be spiritually reborn. The water in this context refers to the water of childbirth.

Salvation by a dead faith (faith alone) is not compatible with scripture, though. (James 2:17)

 

[Zipper]

Salvation by a dead faith (faith alone) is not compatible with scripture, though. (James 2:17)

True, and not a counterargument.
One is saved by faith alone and that living, saving faith will necessarily result in works, including water baptism.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

True, and not a counterargument.
One is saved by faith alone and that living, saving faith will necessarily result in works, including water baptism.

It is the counter argument. You are saying that one is saved by faith alone. James explicitly defines faith alone as dead. If you don't acknowledge that demanded implication then we cannot go further with discussion. I would not be able to see you as one able to draw only conclusions warranted by the evidence.

 

[Zipper]

It is the counter argument. You are saying that one is saved by faith alone. James explicitly defines faith alone as dead.

You are misreading James, who affirms salvation before the Lord by faith alone. Your reading puts James 2 and Ephesians 2 in contradiction.

James is admonishing workless faith. Such faith is manifestly dead ergo not saving. Your mistake is to put the cart before the horse and conclude that works save.
We also need to observe that James isn't even talking about baptism specifically but works generally, so you cannot apply this logic to form a doctrine of baptismal regeneration at the exclusion of some other work like visiting the imprisoned.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

You are misreading James, who affirms salvation before the Lord by faith alone. Your reading puts James 2 and Ephesians 2 in contradiction.

I am not misreading James. James 2:17 clearly states that faith alone is dead.

I am not putting James in contradicrion to Ephesians 2. Ephesians 2 does not say "faith alone'.

James is admonishing workless faith. Such faith is manifestly dead ergo not saving.

Exactly my point.

Your mistake is to put the cart before the horse and conclude that works save.

This is not a mistake. James clearly and explicitly says this in 2:24.

We also need to observe that James isn't even talking about baptism specifically but works generally, so you cannot apply this logic to form a doctrine of baptismal regeneration at the exclusion of some other work like visiting the imprisoned.

I can if I take the Bible as an organic whole instead of cherry picking verses.

 

[Zipper]

You are not engaging with my point. There are several articles here on carm that spell this apparent issue out for you.

Are we saved by faith alone, or do we need works, too?

We are saved by faith alone, not by faith and works. We are saved by faith alone, in Christ alone, without works (Rom. 3:28; 4:5)

carm.org

Verses Showing Justification by Faith

A discussion of Justification by Faith alone, along with a list of many relevant verses and an explanation of the main counter-argument.

carm.org

What about Faith vs. Works?

How do we reconcile passages on faith vs. works? True faith alone legally justifies us before God, but works justify to each other our claim to believe.

carm.org

I will repeat that your reading puts James and Ephesians in contradiction, and I'm not seeing any attempt to resolve it.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

You are not engaging with my point. There are several articles here on carm that spell this apparent issue out for you.

I will read yours if you give your word you will read mine.

I will repeat that your reading puts James and Ephesians in contradiction, and I'm not seeing any attempt to resolve it.

I saw no attempt to show the contradiction so there was nothing for me to resolve beyond your assertion. I simply asserted in response.

 

[Zipper]

I will read yours if you give your word you will read mine.

I saw no attempt to show the contradiction so there was nothing for me to resolve beyond your assertion. I simply asserted in response.

fair
The question at hand is whether James is saying the works cause the faith to be living, and therefore saving, or if the saving faith causes the works. I will concede that a reasonable person might find either reading, but taken in the context of all of scripture (most clearly Ephesians 2), it must be the second option. Ephesians 2 expressly says that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. This does not only mean that the initial salvation is by faith alone as the papists will agree, but salvation is entirely of grace through faith.
If I am reading you correctly you are arguing the first option, then by extension saying baptism by water is a work which saves.

Here are the two passages juxtaposed

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:16-24

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

 

[Bob Carabbio]

In Truth and Love.

Love - maybe. Truth?? Not even close. Water Baptism is what one does in obedience AFTER they have been BORN AGAIN BY FAITH (gifted by God Eph 2:8,9.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

fair
The question at hand is whether James is saying the works cause the faith to be living, and therefore saving, or if the saving faith causes the works. I will concede that a reasonable person might find either reading, but taken in the context of all of scripture (most clearly Ephesians 2), it must be the second option. Ephesians 2 expressly says that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. This does not only mean that the initial salvation is by faith alone as the papists will agree, but salvation is entirely of grace through faith.
If I am reading you correctly you are arguing the first option, then by extension saying baptism by water is a work which saves.

Here are the two passages juxtaposed

Thank you for explaining your reasoning. The contradiction exists only if the types of works Paul and James are talking about are the same kind of works. They are not. There are four different kinds of works talked about in scripture.

1. Works of the law of Moses (Gal. 2:16).
2. Works of the devil (John 8:41,44)
3. Works of self-righteousness (Romans 10:3)
4. Works of obedient faith (James 2; Romans 6:16).

James is talking about works of obedient faith. Any action that God requires of man is an act of obedient faith including the believing itself (John 6:28-29). These types of works are not boast-worthy because man did not devise them nor do they have intrinsic value as if man has accomplished anything more than what he has been required to do by his master (Luke 17:10). I cannot boast about believing in Jesus, or repenting of my sins, or being immersed in water. It would be silly to do so. Just as I should not boast about myself worshipping God according to His design. The greatness of these actions isn't from me or in me, they are in Christ.

In Ephesians 2:8, Paul is talking about works of self-righteousness, works we could potentially boast about. We didn't save ourselves. God saved us by His grace. Our own works, our personal righteousness is insufficient to save us. If we murder someone, we cannot think to ourselves "if I save someone's life, that will balance the scale and I will get to go to Heaven because of what I have done". That's not how it functions. There are no "great deeds" we can do to save ourselves.

However, in Ephesians 2:8, Paul speaks of faith as the conduit through which grace flows. You are saved by grace through faith. That faith is either a dead faith (without works, by definition) or a living faith (an obedient faith with works). This is born out by passages such as Heb. 5:9 which says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation for all them that obey him, or Romans 6:16-18 which says:

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

When we yield ourselves to obey God, we become His servants. When we obey from the heart God's pattern of teaching that was delivered to us, the pattern which Paul just got finished speaking of earlier in Romans 6, at that moment we are made free from sin. When are we made free from sin? When we obey.

I am not asking you to agree with me at this point. I'm merely asking you to understand what I am saying. If you can do that, we can move forward with this discussion.

This is how I would show that James and Paul do not contradict one another while my own position remains consistent with scripture.

In Truth and Love.