Water baptism is not required for salvation, does not help salvation, or save. You must repent of that to be saved, because that is works.

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
Water baptism is not required for salvation, does not help salvation, or save. You must repent of that to be saved, because that is works.

The word baptize, baptized, or baptism do not always mean water baptism in the Holy Bible and water baptism is not required for salvation. If you are trusting that water baptism saves, helps in salvation, or is required for salvation, you must repent of that because that is works and prevents salvation.

Jesus Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The word “but” in each of these passages shows that water is not involved at all.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: - Matthew 3:11

I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. - Mark 1:8

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: - Luke 3:16

26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. - John 1:26, 33

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. - Acts 1:5

Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. - Acts 11:16

So, in each of the first 5 books of the NT, in the first chapter of each where the word baptize or baptized occurs, baptized dos not always mean water baptism. In Acts, this is repeated later in Acts.

Paul, who wanted to make sure as many people as possible believed the gospel and get saved, wrote the following. Obviously water baptism is not needed for salvation.

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. - 1 Corinthians 1:17

In fact, the baptism that occurs at salvation is baptism by the Holy Spirit and no water whatsoever.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:13

The two types, by water and by the Holy Spirit, are referred to in this verse. Notice the plural in verse 2.

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. - Hebrews 6:1-2

The thief on the cross was not baptized with water. The adulterous woman in John 8 is saved without water baptism. The woman who washed Jesus’ feet with her tears and hair in Luke 7 was saved without water baptism. The man sick with the palsy was saved without water baptism. Cornelius and those with him are saved and baptized with the Holy Spirit before any water baptism. There is no mention of any Samaritan being water baptized in John 4. No one in the Old Testament was baptized with water. All these absolutely refute that water baptism saves or is needed for salvation.

The following verse describes baptism with Holy Spirit. When a person believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, they are saved and receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. Water is not mentioned at all. No one has been water baptized like this.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) - John 7:38-39

The same is true of the woman at the well. Again no one was water baptized like this.

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. – John 4:13-14

The following passage is the first preaching of the gospel of salvation by the apostles to Gentiles. It shows the exact sequence.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:34-48

Peter preaches the gospel in verses 36-43. Cornelius and those with them believe and are saved in verse 44 as stated in John 7:39. They speak in tongues in verse 46 so the Jews, who require a sign (see 1 Corinthians 1:22), know that the gospel is now sent to the Gentiles also. They were saved by believing before they were water baptized. They are water baptized after salvation in verse 48. Peter recounts this in Acts 11. If analyze Acts 10 and the first part of Acts 11, what is recorded that Peter said is all the words that he said to be saved.

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? - Acts 11:14-17

In the next passage Jesus Christ says that to be saved you only need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. It water baptism were required then the statement is false. It would have said: he that believes on me and is baptized with water. Since it does not mention water baptism it has to be by belief alone. Thus Jesus declares that water baptism is not needed to be saved. The double verily makes this simple to understand statement emphatic.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. - John 6:47

There are many passages (probably over 200) where only faith or belief in Jesus Christ is what saves. The same logic above applies to each of these statements.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3:14-18

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? - John 11:25-26

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, - Eph 1:13

There are over 200 passages where only faith or belief in Jesus Christ guarantees salvation. None require water baptism.
 

cjab

Well-known member
The command of Jesus on the church is to baptize Matt 28:19. An obedient church will therefore baptize. There is nothing to repent of in believing baptism is required for salvation, even if baptism itself does not save, for obedience is required for salvation. There are many things that don't save in themselves, but are required of believers. Obedience to most of the ten commands would be another. Even pagans obey many of the ten commandment but it doesn't save them. Yet try disobeying them and see where that gets you.
 

Grace

Well-known member
The command of Jesus on the church is to baptize Matt 28:19. An obedient church will therefore baptize. There is nothing to repent of in believing baptism is required for salvation, even if baptism itself does not save, for obedience is required for salvation. There are many things that don't save in themselves, but are required of believers. Obedience to most of the ten commands would be another. Even pagans obey many of the ten commandment but it doesn't save them. Yet try disobeying them and see where that gets you.
How disobedient can you be and still be saved?
 

Grace

Well-known member
You can be faithless on occasions, but you cannot deny Christ. 2 Tim 2:11-13.
How many times can you be faithless? Which occasions are okay to be faithless and which are not?

Which of the ten commandments can you break and still be saved by your water baptism?
 

cjab

Well-known member
How many times can you be faithless? Which occasions are okay to be faithless and which are not?

Which of the ten commandments can you break and still be saved by your water baptism?
Matt 18:21-22 = 70x7. But it is conditional on repentance. The key thing is repentance. If you commit sin you can't repent of, you could be lost.
 

Grace

Well-known member
Matt 18:21-22 = 70x7. But it is conditional on repentance. The key thing is repentance. If you commit sin you can't repent of, you could be lost.
What sin can you commit that you can't repent of?

Baptism with water isn't very effective since many who were baptized as infants NEVER believe and never repent.
 

Grace

Well-known member
Causing children to sin.
Um, what? So the unforgiveable sin is causing children to sin?



That's probably becaus they were exposed to sin by those who should have been teaching them faith.

We are ALL exposed to sin. All of mankind is born we with a natural inclination to sin. We will all choose to sin!
 

cjab

Well-known member
Um, what? So the unforgiveable sin is causing children to sin?
Jesus effectively said it was unforgivable: Matthew 18:6.

Causing believers to sin is one of the worst sins.

We are ALL exposed to sin. All of mankind is born we with a natural inclination to sin. We will all choose to sin!
One hopes not, in time, as that "natural inclination" is subordinated to the mind of Christ.

But as for children, yes they are exposed to sin by all kinds of people via the media and education system. Not necessarily parents. They need to be kept safe, but difficult in this day and age.
 

Grace

Well-known member
Jesus effectively said it was unforgivable: Matthew 18:6.

Causing believers to sin is one of the worst sins.


One hopes not, in time, as that "natural inclination" is subordinated to the mind of Christ.

But as for children, yes they are exposed to sin by all kinds of people via the media and education system. Not necessarily parents. They need to be kept safe, but difficult in this day and age.
No He didn't say it was unforgivable. There is only one unforgiveable sin and that is unbelief!

ALL children will sin. Baptism doesn't stop anyone from sinning. It also doesn't make anyone a believer and we are saved through faith not by rituals.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
How many times can you be faithless? Which occasions are okay to be faithless and which are not?

Which of the ten commandments can you break and still be saved by your water baptism?
Since Water baptism DOESN'T SAVE ANYBODY, the question is meaningless.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
How disobedient can you be and still be saved?
Chuckle!!!! Paul says:
Rom 6:2
"God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein"?

If there's been NO CHANGE in a person's lifestyle after they've been "Born Again", then their whole conversion is probably a lie.
As Spurgeon said: "Any "FAITH" that doesn't CHANGE a person, Won't SAVE THEM either.

On the other hand,
1Jo 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

Reminds me of the story of the Executive who was hiring a driver for his limousine. He ask the candidates, how close could you drive to the edge of a mountain road and be safe??? the one he hired was the one who answered: "I would always drive as FAR AWAY FROM THE EDGE as possible"!!!
 

cjab

Well-known member
No He didn't say it was unforgivable. There is only one unforgiveable sin and that is unbelief!
No, unbelief is forgiveable cf. Peter's denial of Christ.

ALL children will sin. Baptism doesn't stop anyone from sinning. It also doesn't make anyone a believer and we are saved through faith not by rituals.
True, but obedience to the commands of God needs to be inculcated very early on. You don't let children sin so that they can repent. That is a bankrupt philosophy unworthy of a Christian.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No He didn't say it was unforgivable. There is only one unforgiveable sin and that is unbelief!
Well, there are (at least) two problems with that false claim:

1) Unbelief is NOT the "unforgiveable sin":

Matt. 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

2) Everyone has committed the sin of unbelief at some point in their lives, so if that sin was "unforgiveable", the NOBODY would be saved.
 

Rook

Member
This is too easy. OP premise is false and his use of scripture is lacking/incomplete regarding the topic. For example, he didn’t even mention confession (Romans 10:9; 1 John 1:9).

He only used pieces of the truth and he left out the verses that directly contradict his word choices. “Baptism now saves you” ( 1 Peter 3:21)

The command to baptize comes from God Himself. (Matt 28:19). But the OP sets up arguments against the command of the Lord.

Furthermore, We don’t observe Holy Spirit baptism occurring throughout Acts in every conversion. (ex. Acts 16:33; Acts 8:38) The only form of baptism we observe occurring in every conversion is baptism in water.

OP still needs someone to teach him the elementary principles of Christ.
 
Last edited:

SavedByTheLord

Well-known member
This is too easy. OP premise is false and his use of scripture is lacking/incomplete regarding the topic. For example, he didn’t even mention confession (Romans 10:9; 1 John 1:9).

He only used pieces of the truth and he left out the verses that directly contradict his word choices. “Baptism now saves you” ( 1 Peter 3:21)

The command to baptize comes from God Himself. (Matt 28:19). But the OP sets up arguments against the command of the Lord.

Furthermore, We don’t observe Holy Spirit baptism occurring throughout Acts in every conversion. (ex. Acts 16:33; Acts 8:38) The only form of baptism we observe occurring in every conversion is baptism in water.

OP still needs someone to teach him the elementary principles of Christ.
There are 2 kinds of baptisms in scripture.
Water and by the Holy Spirit.
When was the thief on the cross baptized?
And Cornelius and those with him were saved before water.
 

cjab

Well-known member
There are 2 kinds of baptisms in scripture.
Water and by the Holy Spirit.
When was the thief on the cross baptized?
And Cornelius and those with him were saved before water.
They were acknowledged by God and confessed separately from baptism, but is doesn't militate against baptism being a God-sanctioned aspect of confession.
 
Top