Water baptism is not required for salvation, does not help salvation, or save. You must repent of that to be saved, because that is works.

All believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And you do have to get around Eph 1:13-14 to support your position because nowhere do we see that the gift of tongues, given when the church was first starting out, is given to every person who believes and is indwelt.

Are you Pentecostal? Do you believe the gift of tongues is a requirement to prove you've received the HS?
Yes, all believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And I suspect that happens today just like it did in the early church, so I don't see that it's "unique" as you said.

No, nothing for me to get around in Ephesians 1:13-14. I accept that verse just the way that Paul wrote it. Nothing added; nothing left out.

No, I am not Pentecostal. I do not believe the gift of tongues is now or ever has been a requirement to prove that one has received the Holy Spirit.

There are requirements for receiving the Holy Spirit though, and Ephesians 1:13-14 gives two of them: hearing and believing. But it doesn't say these are the only requirements for receiving the Holy Spirit. So while this is certainly an inspired portion of scripture, I wouldn't want to hang my entire doctrine of salvation on this one passage.
 
Yes, all believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And I suspect that happens today just like it did in the early church, so I don't see that it's "unique" as you said.
I didn't say the gift of the Holy Spirit was unique. I said the gift of tongues were unique to the early church.

No, nothing for me to get around in Ephesians 1:13-14. I accept that verse just the way that Paul wrote it. Nothing added; nothing left out.
Ok. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

No, I am not Pentecostal. I do not believe the gift of tongues is now or ever has been a requirement to prove that one has received the Holy Spirit.
Glad to hear it.

There are requirements for receiving the Holy Spirit though, and Ephesians 1:13-14 gives two of them: hearing and believing. But it doesn't say these are the only requirements for receiving the Holy Spirit. So while this is certainly an inspired portion of scripture, I wouldn't want to hang mine entire doctrine of salvation on this one passage.

How else does one receive the Holy Spirit?
 
I didn't say the gift of the Holy Spirit was unique. I said the gift of tongues were unique to the early church.
OK, I misunderstood. I thought you were equating receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. I guess I need to work on my reading comprehension. ;)
How else does one receive the Holy Spirit?
I'm not sure what you mean by this question. It seems you think that belief is the only requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit. If that's a true reflection of your beliefs, do you think a person who has never heard about Christ, confessed Christ, or repented of their sins can receive the Holy Spirit?
 
OK, I misunderstood. I thought you were equating receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. I guess I need to work on my reading comprehension. ;)
I haven't looked back at what I said, but maybe I didn't word it clearly.

I'm not sure what you mean by this question. It seems you think that belief is the only requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit. If that's a true reflection of your beliefs, do you think a person who has never heard about Christ, confessed Christ, or repented of their sins can receive the Holy Spirit?

You said hearing and belief are not the only way to receive the Holy Spirit. So I'm asking what other way does one receive the Holy Spirit.
 
So why did Jesus tell Nicodemus he must be born again? We are born again through faith not because of a ritual washing.
And Nicodemus Didn't HAVE A CLUE what Jesus was even talking about, which was:

The DIFFERENCE between being Born NATURALLY (water), and being born SPIRITUALLY (when the Holy Spirit indwells a person, and open their "spiritual eyes" to see). The first recorded instance of that is John 20:22

Eph 2:8,9 confirms that FAITH (gifted by GOD by HIS WORD TO YOU - Romans 10:17) is how the SPiritual birth happens.
 
And Nicodemus Didn't HAVE A CLUE what Jesus was even talking about, which was:

The DIFFERENCE between being Born NATURALLY (water), and being born SPIRITUALLY (when the Holy Spirit indwells a person, and open their "spiritual eyes" to see).

Eph 2:8,9 confirms that FAITH (gifted by GOD by HIS WORD TO YOU - Romans 10:17) is how the SPiritual birth happens.
And yet Jesus said Nic should know.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but do you believe the OT saints were not born again?
 
You said hearing and belief are not the only way to receive the Holy Spirit. So I'm asking what other way does one receive the Holy Spirit.
I don't believe I used the word "way." If I did, I meant requirements. Ephesians 1:13-14 seems to suggest that there are at least two requirements: hearing and believing. What it doesn't suggest is that these are the only two requirements.

Jesus says twice in Luke 13 (vv. 3, 5) (and I'm paraphrasing here) that if one does not repent they will surely perish. Seems, based on Jesus's double statement here that repentance might be a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit.

What Paul writes in Romans 10:9 seems to indicate that confessing Jesus is Lord is also a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit.

And Peter, in Acts 2:38, in response to the question, "What shall we do?" clearly says that receiving the Holy Spirit is the result of repenting and being baptized. Say or believe what you will about baptism, it's pretty hard to deny that Peter puts it before receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
I don't believe I used the word "way." If I did, I meant requirements. Ephesians 1:13-14 seems to suggest that there are at least two requirements: hearing and believing. What it doesn't suggest is that these are the only two requirements.

Jesus says twice in Luke 13 (vv. 3, 5) (and I'm paraphrasing here) that if one does not repent they will surely perish. Seems, based on Jesus's double statement here that repentance might be a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit.

What Paul writes in Romans 10:9 seems to indicate that confessing Jesus is Lord is also a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit.

And Peter, in Acts 2:38, in response to the question, "What shall we do?" clearly says that receiving the Holy Spirit is the result of repenting and being baptized. Say or believe what you will about baptism, it's pretty hard to deny that Peter puts it before receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.
"Requirement" was the word you used.

So you think a person can hear the gospel, believe it and not repent? Is that your point?

And you think one has to audibly confess Jesus is Lord in order to be saved?

Please stop making me guess what your point is. I really hate the way these discussions often go. No need to be mysterious.
 
All believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And you do have to get around Eph 1:13-14 to support your position because nowhere do we see that the gift of tongues, given when the church was first starting out, is given to every person who believes and is indwelt.

Are you Pentecostal? Do you believe the gift of tongues is a requirement to prove you've received the HS?
"Tongues" has nothing to do with being "Born again" or being indwelled by the Holy Spirit. NO MAJOR PENTECOSTAL Denomination teaches that it does.

The primary EXCEPTION being the UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International) which is a "Oneness" bunch, and DOES teach that "no tongues = No salvation". The UPCI has other problems also.

Bottom line - John 20:22 = the Holy Spirit IN the Born Again Christians. Acts 2:4 = The Holy Spirit externally ON the Christians (Jesus' words are "ENDUED (clothed) with power from on high") This is where the Gifts come from.

I am a "Pentecostal" - long time member in good standing of the "Assemblies of God", who are the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world.

I "Speak in tongues" privately, and publicly have been burdened to Interpret Tongues, and occasionally, to speak prophetically.
 
And yet Jesus said Nic should know.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but do you believe the OT saints were not born again?
NOBODY was "Born again" in the sense of being indwelled by the Holy Spirit, until John 20:22 when Jesus ministered the Holy Spirit to the disciples for the first time after His Ressurection, which was confirmation (1 Cor 15:13-19) that HIS Sacrifice had been sufficient to cleanse people from their SIN.

He promised this in John 14:17. The Holy Spirit has been WITH, and occasionally ON people since the beginning, but before Jesus' SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10) was IN NOBODY.
 
"Tongues" has nothing to do with being "Born again" or being indwelled by the Holy Spirit. NO MAJOR PENTECOSTAL Denomination teaches that it does.

The primary EXCEPTION being the UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International) which is a "Oneness" bunch, and DOES teach that "no tongues = No salvation". The UPCI has other problems also.

Bottom line - John 20:22 = the Holy Spirit IN the Born Again Christians. Acts 2:4 = The Holy Spirit externally ON the Christians (Jesus' words are "ENDUED (clothed) with power from on high") This is where the Gifts come from.

I am a "Pentecostal" - long time member in good standing of the "Assemblies of God", who are the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world.

I "Speak in tongues" privately, and publicly have been burdened to Interpret Tongues, and occasionally, to speak prophetically.
I agree. Tongues have nothing to do with being born again. There was a Pentecostal church where I live that absolutely believed it did.

Speaking in tongues in the Bible was when someone spoke in a language they did not normally speak...not an invented one. And it was for the benefit of those who spoke that other language.
 
NOBODY was "Born again" in the sense of being indwelled by the Holy Spirit, until John 20:22 when Jesus ministered the Holy Spirit to the disciples for the first time after His Ressurection, which was confirmation (1 Cor 15:13-19) that HIS Sacrifice had been sufficient to cleanse people from their SIN.

He promised this in John 14:17. The Holy Spirit has been WITH, and occasionally ON people since the beginning, but before Jesus' SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10) was IN NOBODY.
There are many instances of the Holy Spirit indwelling people in the OT.
 
Speaking in tongues in the Bible was when someone spoke in a language they did not normally speak...not an invented one. And it was for the benefit of those who spoke that other language.
Not in the Corinthian church according to 1 Cor 14.
 
Not a made up language there either. On this we disagree.
Unless it's not a "Made up" language at all.

In the UPCI, you can't be saved UNLESS you cough up an "acceptable tongue", so you can IMAGINE the "PEER PRESSURE" to produce one!!

There's a satanic teaching even in the major Pentecostal Denominations, that you've got to "Prime the pump" by speaking "baby talk", or making random sounds to "Get it started". This foolishness almost GUARANTEES that any tongues you speak will be PHONY!!!

The "Way International" church for $400 in 1970 would TEACH YOU to speak in tongues, Prophesy, and Interpret ON CUE. and all as phony as a three dollar bill. I don't doubt for a millisecond that you've been exposed to false tongues. But that doesn't eliminate the existence of the TRUE GIFTS.

When I FIRST spoke in a tongue, we were in worship, and an odd "word" came into my mind, and when I spoke it, more words came, and just "flowed in" as I spoke them. Prophesy and interpretation (and other spoken gifts) work exactly the same way - the Holy Spirit "feeds" you exactly what you're supposed to speak, and you just speak what you get (Mark 13:11). if you HAVE ANYTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH WHAT'S SPOKEN, then it's PHONY.

Chuckle!! There was a fellow in an AG church up in Ohio, who would "go off in tongues at the end of the sang service, just like clock-work. And ALL his utterances were the SAME!! SO naturally I wrote him off as a Phony - UNTIL the first time that I was burdened to interpret - HIS UTTERANCE. SO I spoke what the Holy Spirit gave me, and became LESS JUDGEMENTAL of somebody else's gift.
 
Unless it's not a "Made up" language at all.

In the UPCI, you can't be saved UNLESS you cough up an "acceptable tongue", so you can IMAGINE the "PEER PRESSURE" to produce one!!

There's a satanic teaching even in the major Pentecostal Denominations, that you've got to "Prime the pump" by speaking "baby talk", or making random sounds to "Get it started". This foolishness almost GUARANTEES that any tongues you speak will be PHONY!!!

The "Way International" church for $400 in 1970 would TEACH YOU to speak in tongues, Prophesy, and Interpret ON CUE. and all as phony as a three dollar bill. I don't doubt for a millisecond that you've been exposed to false tongues. But that doesn't eliminate the existence of the TRUE GIFTS.

When I FIRST spoke in a tongue, we were in worship, and an odd "word" came into my mind, and when I spoke it, more words came, and just "flowed in" as I spoke them. Prophesy and interpretation (and other spoken gifts) work exactly the same way - the Holy Spirit "feeds" you exactly what you're supposed to speak, and you just speak what you get (Mark 13:11). if you HAVE ANYTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH WHAT'S SPOKEN, then it's PHONY.

Chuckle!! There was a fellow in an AG church up in Ohio, who would "go off in tongues at the end of the sang service, just like clock-work. And ALL his utterances were the SAME!! SO naturally I wrote him off as a Phony - UNTIL the first time that I was burdened to interpret - HIS UTTERANCE. SO I spoke what the Holy Spirit gave me, and became LESS JUDGEMENTAL of somebody else's gift.
What is the purpose of this "gift" of speaking in tongues?
 
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