We will be on this Earth for the tribulation

I did. The tribulation started in Acts and ended at the razing of Jerusalem...
So to be brief, could you explain then how that correlates with the verses that mention the trials coming on ALL the earth, ALLl men being affected, the sign of the Son of Man being visible to ALL the tribes of the Earth, just to name a few.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Not necessarily? So between all the different eschatologies out there would you suggest that there is some unknown alternative that is correct?
I don't believe anyone here claims to know the day or hour and I don't believe any particular of the main eschatologies presented in this forum by posters claims to know the day or the hour. We are however called to know the season as per multiple verses including 1 Thessalonians 5:4
Yup, and we've been calling the "SEASON" for centuries. The "Season" Started when Jesus ascended, and Every significant world leader since then, has been the "Antichrist" to one "Chicken Little" or another. My "88 reasons that the "Rapture will occur in 1988" proved BEYOND DOUBT that the Rapture will occur in 1988. except -

BUT HEY!!! Believe whatever "Version" of the absolute truth you want to. It's completely unimportant anyway.
 
Yup, and we've been calling the "SEASON" for centuries. The "Season" Started when Jesus ascended, and Every significant world leader since then, has been the "Antichrist" to one "Chicken Little" or another. My "88 reasons that the "Rapture will occur in 1988" proved BEYOND DOUBT that the Rapture will occur in 1988. except -

BUT HEY!!! Believe whatever "Version" of the absolute truth you want to. It's completely unimportant anyway.
Well, I am with you on previous claims for the season to be at hand and how that would be a general turn-off from eschatology. Let me ask though, would you accept the premise that in no other time in previous history has everything been fulfilled that was predicted to happen immediately before the tribulation such as the birth pains and other specifics? Also, why do you say it is unimportant?
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
Not necessarily? So between all the different eschatologies out there would you suggest that there is some unknown alternative that is correct?
There is no traditional or established eschatology that is without numerous errors and misinterpretations. Scripture is meant to be interpreted literally which eliminates any and all versions of amillennialism. Traditional dispensational eschatology (and I label myself as dispensational) is full of errors, a great many of which are the result of not taking the sealing and concealing of Daniel literally:

4 But as for you, Daniel, keep these words secret and seal up the book until the end of time; many will roam about, and knowledge will increase.”​
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words will be kept secret and sealed up until the end time.

Obviously, this is exactly according to the predetermined plan and purpose of the LORD or the book of Daniel would not have been sealed until these last days of the last days. The most significant prophecy in Daniel that has been misinterpreted is the seventy weeks of Daniel 9. I have never seen it correctly interpreted in the fullest sense of the term and I’ve been a serious student of Bible prophecy for almost 43 years.

We will be on this Earth for the tribulation. As simple as that. I hope you are prepared to some degree. God will protect his faithful.

There was a time that I would have agreed with you, but that was decades ago. I don’t care to debate the issue because it’s far too complicated with many dots to be connected. And a forum such as this is simply not suited to an in-depth examination of the numerous passages that must be rightly divided if one is to arrive at an accurate understanding of the soon to occur PREtribulation rapture of born again believers.
 
There is no traditional or established eschatology that is without numerous errors and misinterpretations. Scripture is meant to be interpreted literally which eliminates any and all versions of amillennialism. Traditional dispensational eschatology (and I label myself as dispensational) is full of errors, a great many of which are the result of not taking the sealing and concealing of Daniel literally:

4 But as for you, Daniel, keep these words secret and seal up the book until the end of time; many will roam about, and knowledge will increase.”​
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words will be kept secret and sealed up until the end time.

Obviously, this is exactly according to the predetermined plan and purpose of the LORD or the book of Daniel would not have been sealed until these last days of the last days. The most significant prophecy in Daniel that has been misinterpreted is the seventy weeks of Daniel 9. I have never seen it correctly interpreted in the fullest sense of the term and I’ve been a serious student of Bible prophecy for almost 43 years.
Agreed. I will try and not get you dive too deep down the rabbit hole here but would you agree that Daniel has been essentially fulfilled already?
There was a time that I would have agreed with you, but that was decades ago. I don’t care to debate the issue because it’s far too complicated with many dots to be connected. And a forum such as this is simply not suited to an in-depth examination of the numerous passages that must be rightly divided if one is to arrive at an accurate understanding of the soon to occur PREtribulation rapture of born again believers.
Well, I can do a light breeze through if you'd like. Especially if you want to make a a closing statement that directly contradicts my position. ;)
 
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Because it will take place, AS GOD HAS DIRECTED IT TO, in HIS TIME, and according to HIS METHOD - REGARDLESS of "Man's Theology(s)", Man's beliefs, and MAN'S dogmas. If it happens at 3:51 this afternoon, I'm ready. If it doesn't I'm still ready. There's, for sure, nothing on this dirt ball that I want to hang onto.
I can appreciate your sentiment so I won't try and prod you too hard here. I would simply say that from my own point of view, I take special heed to the words of Jesus that we will know the season and to not be caught as a thief in the night as Paul instructed. The point of all that as I see it is to try to get others to prepare as there will be a great falling away as you know. It has already begun but I fear that there will be stronger believers who may lose faith along the way when they see the events playing out in front of them when they had thought they wouldn't be here.
 

Timtofly

Member
Wait a minute, you just switched from talking about Christians in one post and then Jews in the next.
There were no Christians at the Olivet Discourse. The Jews were being addressed. That is being consistent. The church is not addressed, therefore not going to go through this tribulation that the Jews will.

This time of great tribulation is the final harvest. All humanity are going to die. If one does not die one way, they will be taken by an angel in death anyway. If one dies now, they certainly did not endure to the end.

This endurance is not physical anyways. If one does not turn against God all the way until their last breath, they endured Satan's temptation to curse God and die. See the book of Job.
 

Timtofly

Member
Well, I am with you on previous claims for the season to be at hand and how that would be a general turn-off from eschatology. Let me ask though, would you accept the premise that in no other time in previous history has everything been fulfilled that was predicted to happen immediately before the tribulation such as the birth pains and other specifics? Also, why do you say it is unimportant?
The 6000 thousand year punishment of Adam comes to mind. The 4th commandment: six days shalt thou labor. These six days has to come to an end.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
So to be brief, could you explain then how that correlates with the verses that mention the trials coming on ALL the earth, ALLl men being affected, the sign of the Son of Man being visible to ALL the tribes of the Earth, just to name a few.

Could you quote specifically which passages you are alluding to? Thanks...
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
Well, I can do a light breeze through if you'd like. Especially if you want to make a a closing statement that directly contradicts my position. ;)
This is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg but the "one taken and one left" passages in Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are the clearest pretrib rapture passages in the NT. And I understand considerably more about these passages than anyone that I'm aware of. Most certainly more than anyone in this forum.
 

jamesh

Active member
There were no Christians at the Olivet Discourse. The Jews were being addressed. That is being consistent. The church is not addressed, therefore not going to go through this tribulation that the Jews will.

This time of great tribulation is the final harvest. All humanity are going to die. If one does not die one way, they will be taken by an angel in death anyway. If one dies now, they certainly did not endure to the end.

This endurance is not physical anyways. If one does not turn against God all the way until their last breath, they endured Satan's temptation to curse God and die. See the book of Job.
Excuse me Timtofly, I have a question for you? Since you say there were no Christians at the Olivet Discourse (and I don't think it matters) is there anything in the Olivet Discourse that would apply to Christians?

For instance, the disciples came to Jesus at Matthew 24:3 and ask Him the following question? "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND OF THE END OF THE WORLD/AGE?"

So where in the answer that Jesus gives is the rapture of the Church?

In Him,
herman
 

Timtofly

Member
Excuse me Timtofly, I have a question for you? Since you say there were no Christians at the Olivet Discourse (and I don't think it matters) is there anything in the Olivet Discourse that would apply to Christians?

For instance, the disciples came to Jesus at Matthew 24:3 and ask Him the following question? "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND OF THE END OF THE WORLD/AGE?"

So where in the answer that Jesus gives is the rapture of the Church?

In Him,
herman
The Second Coming in the 6th Seal, includes the rapture. John states the same event as Jesus did. Once God on the throne and the Lamb appear, the final harvest will begin.

Matthew 21:40-41
40 Now when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 They answered him, “He will viciously destroy those vicious men and rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the crop when it’s due.”

The Son coming happened 1990 years ago. The vineyard was given to the church. Now God on the throne, the Lord of the vineyard is coming. That is the 6th Seal. The vineyard will be taken out of the hands of the church. The harvest will be gathered. Anything left will be given to Satan for 42 months.

The church is not just part of the harvest, but the Steward as well. The church is removed prior to the final harvest, just like Israel was removed, prior to the Church. The veil being torn was the end. What happened in 70AD had nothing whatsoever to do with Christ, Israel, nor the church. It would have not mattered if it was destroyed then or hundreds of years later. Armageddon is not the Second Coming and harvest. It is the end of Adam's flesh and blood, after Satan gets 42 months. The church and Satan do not co-steward. In fact Revelation 13 claims the saints are defeated. They leave earth entirely so Satan gets full authority. Only 2 male witnesses are there to give Satan fits.
 
There were no Christians at the Olivet Discourse. The Jews were being addressed. That is being consistent. The church is not addressed, therefore not going to go through this tribulation that the Jews will.
This is an argument from silence which is fallacious. However, the verses mentioning the trials come on ALL the Earth, and ALL man being affected kinda do say that Christians will be involved.
 
This is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg but the "one taken and one left" passages in Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are the clearest pretrib rapture passages in the NT. And I understand considerably more about these passages than anyone that I'm aware of. Most certainly more than anyone in this forum.
Well, could you explain how those verses specifically refer to the timing of the Rapture? I'm not seeing it.
 
Could you quote specifically which passages you are alluding to? Thanks...
You got it. To keep it simple, let's start with just one. I like the NASB translation so I hope you don't mind. Matthew 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then ALL the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
You got it. To keep it simple, let's start with just one. I like the NASB translation so I hope you don't mind. Matthew 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then ALL the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."

This is apocalyptic language...
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I think Earth means ground, dirt, terra firma... Not the whole World...

It is speaking of Israel specifically. That is who Jesus was speaking to. He was speaking to "this generation" through out Matthew, Mark, and Luke... In fact, he uses the words "this generation" 28 times (If I remember right)... The tribes very well could be the tribes of Israel. We know that Israel of that day had the tribes of Judah and Levi heavily represented. There were probably other tribes represented too. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin. We also know that there were Israelites living in the old Babylon (the name of the country escapes me right now) and through out Asia and the Roman Empire.

The idea of everyone in the world seeing this particular coming is read into the text. If you review the version I posted, you will see that Jesus arrived on the clouds of Heaven... Clouds are used throughout the OT representing God's judgement. This was Christ's judgement on Israel. The tribes of Israel, all of them, saw this judgement in the form of the Roman army... And we know that God used other nations' armies to judge Israel (i.e. Persia, Babylon, Greece, Rome)...
 
This is apocalyptic language...
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I think Earth means ground, dirt, terra firma... Not the whole World...

It is speaking of Israel specifically. That is who Jesus was speaking to. He was speaking to "this generation" through out Matthew, Mark, and Luke... In fact, he uses the words "this generation" 28 times (If I remember right)... The tribes very well could be the tribes of Israel. We know that Israel of that day had the tribes of Judah and Levi heavily represented. There were probably other tribes represented too. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin. We also know that there were Israelites living in the old Babylon (the name of the country escapes me right now) and through out Asia and the Roman Empire.

The idea of everyone in the world seeing this particular coming is read into the text. If you review the version I posted, you will see that Jesus arrived on the clouds of Heaven... Clouds are used throughout the OT representing God's judgement. This was Christ's judgement on Israel. The tribes of Israel, all of them, saw this judgement in the form of the Roman army... And we know that God used other nations' armies to judge Israel (i.e. Persia, Babylon, Greece, Rome)...
With all do respect, you have to realize that these are quite some interpretational gymnastics to arrive at your conclusion. What happened to a plain reading and interpretation of the text? You are adding undue symbolism where it is not needed. Sure, clouds can represent God's judgment in the OT. But they can also be those white puffs of moisture in the sky as well. Even if you want the verse to say all the tribes of the dirt, that still implies the entire world. This reminds me of Revelation where it is said to not add or subtract anything from the prophecies. Also in Revelation and throughout the Bible, when symbolism is to be had, it is stated so and then usually an angel will explain the symbolism to the writer. If you have to add your own symbolism and alternative meanings to the plain text to arrive at the conclusion you want, that is not how I operate here.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
With all do respect, you have to realize that these are quite some interpretational gymnastics to arrive at your conclusion. What happened to a plain reading and interpretation of the text? You are adding undue symbolism where it is not needed. Sure, clouds can represent God's judgment in the OT. But they can also be those white puffs of moisture in the sky as well. Even if you want the verse to say all the tribes of the dirt, that still implies the entire world. This reminds me of Revelation where it is said to not add or subtract anything from the prophecies. Also in Revelation and throughout the Bible, when symbolism is to be had, it is stated so and then usually an angel will explain the symbolism to the writer. If you have to add your own symbolism and alternative meanings to the plain text to arrive at the conclusion you want, that is not how I operate here.

Plain reading doesn't work with apocalyptic language... They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Does this mean there are clouds in Heaven?

Plain reading can go both ways... Why don't you accept the plain reading of these verses?

34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Not some distant Generation, Not that [future] Generation)

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Soon to take place, not 2000+ years)

I think presuppositions color our take on passages... I focus on time texts and apocalyptic language. You focus on literalism and a future fulfillment...
 
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