Weekend Papyrus 6/11/2021

Gryllus Maior

Active member
Ok maybe not “Luke” ( and I use the word “apostle” to refer to him not in the sense that he was one of the twelve) , but certainly I cannot imagine apostle Peter writing the way he did without help. He was averse to all things gentile even after the resurrection of Jesus.
That changed mostly after Acts 10-11, with a relapse in Galatians 2:11-14. But it's really irrelevant. You can be a perfectly orthodox Jew and speak English, German, Spanish, etc. as your primary language. Or in ancient times, knowing Greek would an advantage no matter what. I fail to see the problem. At any rate, I just thought some of the latest research was interesting, and deserved a shoutout. Honestly, you could be right. You're certainly in good company!
 

John Milton

Well-known member
Oh, oh!

Mr. Barrels, has it occurred to you that the NT writers may have had help ? Perhaps from friends (possibly even native Greeks ones) who may have corrected their grammatical errors, and/or that their letters and gospels might have been smoothed over of errors by ancient (and not so ancient) scribes in the process of transcription, and/or that some of them might even have hired the services of professionals , such as an amanuensis ? They may have been illiterate, but they were not dumb.
LOL. No, it never occurred to me. :ROFLMAO:

There is a difference between language reading, writing, speaking, and listening skills as anyone who has learned or is learning a new language can tell you. (<-- Get it?)

The writers of the papyri that we have been translating were, in all probability, native speakers. That doesn't mean that they were highly literate. The New Testament authors, whoever they were, display greater literacy skills than many of the papyri authors. As far as your "question" goes, if the gospel or letter does not state or imply that such occurred, I consider it a more remote option. There are too many extra steps involved for me to think that it is the more likely option. I don't think the New Testament authors were illiterate, and I think they knew Greek well.

As I side note, as I read from Acts this weekend, I was struck by the higher register that Luke uses for Festus in chapter 25. It was a nice touch, I think.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
LOL. No, it never occurred to me. :ROFLMAO:

…. if the gospel or letter does not state or imply that such occurred, I consider it a more remote option. There are too many extra steps involved for me to think that it is the more likely option. I don't think the New Testament authors were illiterate, and I think they knew Greek well.
……

Bold above, you’re partly right. Correct should be, “if the Bible does not state something, we shouldn’t make it into dogma or doctrine.”

In any case, you should be consistent & apply your own maxim to the apparent “Deity” of Christ & the “Triunity of God.” See how far that gets you, Mr. Barrels.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
That changed mostly after Acts 10-11, with a relapse in Galatians 2:11-14. But it's really irrelevant. You can be a perfectly orthodox Jew and speak English, German, Spanish, etc. as your primary language. Or in ancient times, knowing Greek would an advantage no matter what. I fail to see the problem. At any rate, I just thought some of the latest research was interesting, and deserved a shoutout. Honestly, you could be right. You're certainly in good company!

Even in the modern world only a minority of the people in the Middle East speak and write multiple languages, with any level of fluency. The standard is one language.

I find it a hard sell that all of the biblical writers were fluent in three languages — Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Quote:
It has been estimated that at least 90 percent of the Jewish population ofRoman Palestine in the first centuries CE could merely write their own name or not write and read at all, or that the literacy rate was about 3 percent.
 

Gryllus Maior

Active member
Even in the modern world only a minority of the people in the Middle East speak and write multiple languages, with any level of fluency. The standard is one language.

I find it a hard sell that all of the biblical writers were fluent in three languages — Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
We are not talking about the modern world. We are talking about the ancient world during the Roman empire.


And this article by Charlesworth on JSTOR has a lot of useful information:

 

John Milton

Well-known member
Bold above, you’re partly right. Correct should be, “if the Bible does not state something, we shouldn’t make it into dogma or doctrine.”

In any case, you should be consistent & apply your own maxim to the apparent “Deity” of Christ & the “Triunity of God.” See how far that gets you, Mr. Barrels.
I refuse to make this thread about oneness garbage. If you want to demonstrate the ways that you disrespect God's word, start another thread.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
Even in the modern world only a minority of the people in the Middle East speak and write multiple languages, with any level of fluency. The standard is one language.

I find it a hard sell that all of the biblical writers were fluent in three languages — Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
That's not true. In Israel today you can go and hear people who are able to speak many different languages. In fact, when I have spoken modern Hebrew with people living in Israel, I have seen their Israeli roommates suggesting different English words to my tutor on multiple occasions to help him/her explain to me what is going on in the Hebrew better.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
That's not true. In Israel today you can go and hear people who are able to speak many different languages. In fact, when I have spoken modern Hebrew with people living in Israel, I have seen their Israeli roommates suggesting different English words to my tutor on multiple occasions to help him/her explain to me what is going on in the Hebrew better.
I was speaking of the native , non-diaspora populations of the Middle East of today ( in countries like Egypt, Syria , and population groups like the Palestinians, etc) . “Israel today” is basically Europe implanted over there in terms of education, so it’s not at all representative of ancient Israel. Think Mr. Barrels , before blurting out.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Others estimate literacy rates quite higher. Alas... But note that Peter and company were businessmen and property owners. This could place them in higher literacy bracket...

Maybe. On the other hand, they were small time local fishermen from Galilee. How much trade do you think they conducted with Greek speaking foreigners ? Trade with locals would hardly require Greek.
 

John Milton

Well-known member
I was speaking of the native populations of the Middle East of today ( countries like Egypt, Syria , and population groups like the Palestinians, etc) . “Israel today” is basically Europe implanted over there, so it’s not at all representative of ancient Israel. Think Mr. Barrels , before blurting out.
Ah, so the cherry-picked Middle East. Not Jordan or UAE or Egypt or Iran or many other Middle Easter countries where mutlilingualism is not unusual. It would probably be a waste of time to point out to you that many of these countries now have more English signage and such than that in Arabic or other "native" languages.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Ah, so the cherry-picked Middle East. Not Jordan or UAE or Egypt or Iran or many other Middle Easter countries where mutlilingualism is not unusual. It would probably be a waste of time to point out to you that many of these countries now have more English signage and such than that in Arabic or other "native" languages.

Not much more than 10% of the populations of these countries are “multilingual.” ( And that’s being generous). Go back two thousand years and the situation would be much worse. At most 2 to 3 %.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Forget about multilingualism, they have a serious problem with illiteracy even now:

CAIRO – 12 November 2019: Head of the General Authority for Literacy and Adult Education on Monday said Egypt faces a high illiteracy rate, but managed to decrease it to 27 percent from 42 percent.

In an interview with Salat al-Tahrir on Sada al-Balad, Ashour Amry said Egypt currently has around 18 million illiterate persons over 15 years old.
 
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